[REL] Trigger Maru Overhauled

[fitzcarraldo]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Ah, but what time zone was the official record in? What time zone is your boat on? Can you separate game error from reporting error? I can't. TMO is innocent until proven guilty!

That´s the point.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo

[Gibus]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Ah, but what time zone was the official record in? What time zone is your boat on?

I probably misspoke.
USS Trout have been sank BEFORE his victim, can not have sent that message. It has nothing to do with my time zone.

[flieslikeabrick]

Originally Posted by Gibus

http://www.mille-sabords.com/forum/i...?showforum=158

Hey, a french forum. Nice. Thank you!

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Gibus

I probably misspoke.
USS Trout have been sank BEFORE his victim, can not have sent that message. It has nothing to do with my time zone.

How can you say that? Suppose a historian in Hawaii recorded incidents in local time. But the incident really happened two hours "earlier" because they were 30º east where local time was two hours earlier. So your report of the time of sinking might be 5:30 pm and the sub commander receiving immediate word of the sinking would receive it at 3:30.

To you it would look like he heard about the sinking two hours before it happened and you would poo-poo the report saying there's some defect in the space-time continuum.

Similarly, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on December 6, 1941. But because on the mainland US the time was December 7 that is the date we all remember. In Japan it was December 6. Time zones are integral to our understanding of events and their effects are often ignored in what we claim is possible or impossible.

Therefore your claim that TMO is wrong cannot be established as true.

And the game reports that the Trout sank the Japanese ship. The message didn't necessarily come from the Trout. Plus, JANAC found all kinds of claimed sinkings that actually didn't take place, misidentified targets and other SNAFUs of in-combat reporting. It's entirely possible that the Trout could have claimed a sinking when the actual sinking took place after the Trout was sunk itself. War is a messy and confusing business.

[Gibus]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

The message didn't necessarily come from the Trout.

Bonjour,

For your information the message TMO well emanates from the submarine USS Trout (SS-202) and is signed A.H. Clark.

On the other hand, you seem not to understand that Sakito Maru sank a long time after (10 hours) USS Trout was have been destroyed. Clark could not say something he had not lived. The message clearly states: Sunk Sakito Maru Passenger Cargo 7,126 X A.H. Clark

I understand that it bothers you, but facts are stubborn.

[Rockin Robbins]

Issue found both in TMO 2.5 and TMO 2.7.





You can see it appears to be a summary of all Japanese shipping sunk that day and received at 1730. It's not clear that these are supposed to be communications from the boats themselves or whether these are routine messages from base. Actually they are simply products of Ducimus attempting to give you, as player of the game, historical context for your actions. Surely, sub commanders' names would not be actually included in wartime traffic. Even submarine names or hull numbers were not included in such messages. Trout's radio ID, for instance, was NAN - ABLE - XRAY - CHARLIE.

Since all these messages go out at 1730 most probably they are routine messages from base and the captains' names are there for historical information only. It would be impossible to receive boat to boat communications from a very long range anyway.

At any rate, you can substitute a message offering you Disney World tickets from Mickey Mouse if you want, or a "please don't hurt me" message from Mr. Tojo.

In any event, if something like this destroys your enjoyment of a mod you have greater problems than Ducimus could solve. No modder is going to do extensive research of every sinking in the war, whether it was reported by the responsible submarine at the time, time of incident, etc.

The water is warm. Jump in and make a perfect mod!

[Rockin Robbins]

As far as time zones go, Pearl is five time zones east of the point of sinking, which is in the same time zone as Japan.



Let's pretend that the Japanese reported the sinking at 2000 February 20, 1944. Code breakers at CINCPAC at Pearl would report the sinking at their local time: 0100, February 21, 1944. History books would probably pick up a mixture of the two sources without correction for time zone. Therefore, with the 5 hour difference, books can easily have a sinking being reported after the demise of the reporter.

War and history are messy subjects, subject to intentional and unintentional distortion. Treating a game as some kind of a historical shrine is clearly inappropriate.

[Gibus]

Bonjour,

Thank you for all that information that confirm my knowledge of this episode.
My sources are from the mod Run Silent, Run Deep (JapaneseConvoyHistory2.pdf page 208)

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

And hey! Nobody forces you to use Trigger Maru.

You are wrong. TMO is so well done that we can not do without.
But I suppose it is not forbidden to wish to see it better.
Best regards.

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, now you have the ability to edit the proper file to make sure that all information is possible and properly formatted, omitting the names of submarines and captains.

It would be a great project to research the entire list and find the other "errors" (which are not errors. Ducimus was simply supplying historical context for your gameplay), substitute factual or at least plausible messages, which should all be broadcast from your sub's originating base. I'd suggest replacing all submarine names with their radio call signs (however you might come up with that information. Subsowespac.org might be able to help you with that!

If you are inclined to do this pretty intimidating project, it's pretty easy to figure out the format of the file. It would be really easy to make your version into a mod to be added on top of TMO. If you need help with that I'd be glad to help.

Spoiler alert! However, the way the game is hard-wired, it is entirely possible that you would receive a report from CINCPAC that the Yamato has been sunk and then encounter the Yamato later that afternoon....... Help! The space-time continuum is BROKEN!

[aanker]

The radio call signs for all boats are listed at http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/04idx.htm

Just look up the specific boat you are interested in. The call sign is at the top of the page.
Here is USS COD:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08224.htm
Radio Call Sign: November - Echo - Charlie - Oscar

This needs to be translated to WW II:
Radio Call Sign: Nan - Easy - Charlie - Oboe

You need to translate to WW II era names:
In WW II, N is 'NAN' - after 1957 N is November.

Phonetic Alphabet and Signal Flags:

Letter |World War II |1957-Present
A | Afirm (Able)| Alfa
B | Baker |Bravo
C |Charlie | Charlie
D |Dog |Delta
E | Easy |Echo
F | Fox |Foxtrot
G |George |Golf
H |How | Hotel
I |Int (Item) | India
J | Jig |Juliett
K | King |Kilo
L | Love | Lima
M | Mike | Mike
N | Negat (Nan) |November
O |Option (Oboe)| Oscar
P | Prep (Peter)| Papa
Q |Queen |Quebec
R | Roger |Romeo
S | Sugar |Sierra
T | Tare | Tango
U | Uncle |Uniform
V | Victor |Victor
W | William |Whiskey
X | X-ray | X-ray
Y | Yoke |Yankee
Z | Zebra | Zulu

Hope this helps. Pardon the Table formatting. I have a doc somewhere that lists all active boats in WW II and their call signs.

Happy Hunting!

[torpedobait]

RR wrote: "Issue found both in TMO 2.5 and TMO 2.7."

I thought the latest TMO is 2.5. Am I mistaken? That would not surprise me in the least.

[aanker]

Originally Posted by torpedobait

RR wrote: "Issue found both in TMO 2.5 and TMO 2.7."

I thought the latest TMO is 2.5. Am I mistaken? That would not surprise me in the least.

If there is a 2.7, maybe it includes, or completely repairs TMO 2.5 with a fix that my small_patch fix for the Terrible T campaign addresses?

1_TMO_25_small_patch
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=3506

I don't see a TMO 2.7 in the downloads.

Interesting...

I should mention that users of RSRD don't seem to need the small_patch, I'm guessing it's because RSRD overwrites the files in TMO 2.5 with files that don't create the glitch....
-

[Gibus]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

It would be really easy to make your version into a mod to be added on top of TMO. If you need help with that I'd be glad to help.

Bonjour RR,

This is already done for the French: messages, orders patrols, battles redesigned, new cloned units (Zuikaku, Yamashiro, Haruna, Aoba, Chokai, Myoko, Haguro, Kumano, Suzuya, Yahagi, Asagumo, Kagero, Ushio & C°), etc ...
Your project will take a long time and to get into this adventure is not a priority for me.


Postscript: As Aanker, I am interested in your TMO 2.7.

[stilo73-fr.]

thank you

[Jimbuna]

Welcome to SubSim stilo73-fr.