GWX's "uber" AI demystified

[Ducimus]

Yup. Visual, and i think radar detection ranges as well.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Unfortunatly, the AI sonar in SH3 is much like a flashlight, it's shaped how it is, and its either on or off. It doesnt do sweeping motions. Thats my understanding of it anyway.

If you want an illustration in motion, target a destroyer in a singleplayer mission with the auto TDC enabled. You'll see a graphical represenation of his sensors on the map, and you'll physically see the sonar cone's width and shape from a top down view.

Unfortunately, you're understanding of it is probably very good. I've seen those dotted outlines, but was hoping that they represented possible coverage arcs, not one big one. However, looking in the "ai_sensor" file, I see no entries for sweep periods or smaller arcs within the main elevation arc, so I believe you are correct and the game simplifies the cone into one big "flashlight".

I know I'm preaching to the choir here (As you obviously already know this stuff from your excellent primer at the start of this thread), this is not the way it worked in real life. For those that may not be as familiar, this is a link to a nice diagram showing how the different sonar types can work together (aiming in small arcs):
http://www.de220.com/Electronics/Son...20Patterns.jpg
Didn't think SH3 modeled it in anywhere near that kind of detail, but was hoping it was more complicated than just the one big flashlight model.

So just ignore that guess (Did say it was just a Guess, must be that Popeye avatar rattling my brain) , and I'll have to rely on the other two guesses as to the depth of pinging.

[Steppenwolf]

Ducimus,
Yes, as I suspected in my Disclaimer, I had made a mistake in that chart (which I have now edited). This makes the depth detection a little closer to your experience (though still off). I think the two guesses I made originally (about non-perfect condtions and non-latest equipment), probably explain the remaining difference.

It's also a distinct possibility that SH3 models this completely differently (it simplifies many other things regarding the cone as we've seen in the previous post). Instead of a continuously decreasing maximum depth, it may only change the maximum depth every X meters or every X% of the range, so the maximum depth becomes a series of block steps rather than a smooth angle (which would also explain your observation). The above chart is just what, "theoretically" the maximum depths would be in "perfect" conditions.

Haven't done a late war patrol myself (much too cowardly), so don't have any practical experience as to when the AI seems to lose you. Would be curious to hear other people's experiences with this. At what distances the Destroyers seem to stay in contact or lose you. We might be able to get a better idea of how SH3 handles this.

By the way, I've incorporated a number of the changes from your "Flavored to Taste" mod and am enjoying them very much. Thanks for your work on this.

[Woof1701]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

That i havent got quite nailed down yet, but ill tell you the bits that i comprehend.

- The AI has the same max visual range that you do.

- Weather, and state of the sea effect the maximum visual distance the AI can see.

- Time of day effects the max visual distance for the AI (IE, day vs night)

- Your profile or aspect effects the AI's ability to see you. Again, bow's on or as close to it as your attack approach allows. Broadside is a no no. Turning on your heel to shoot your rear torpedos, this is always a concern.

- Your surface speed effects the AI's ability to visuall detect you. If your running a night surface attack at flank speed, the odds are theyll notice vs running in at 1/3rd or standard.

- The closer you get, the greater their visual acuity. Personnaly i get no closer then about 2600 to 3000 meters, and only if i keep my profile small, and my speed low, at night.

edit:
When it comes to radar, all bets are off with visual detection.

Hmm. Thanks. That's what I was afraid of I thought with GWX maybe there's a way to attack and even penetrate inside the convoy on a overcast night, like it was done in reality on many occasions. As I stated before in a different thread I think the visual accuracy of the AI is far too good. Being spotted in pitch black nights at 2000 meters distance and seeing a raised scope in the waves even at day is a chance encounter at best.
Just to illustrate my experiences with the sea. During the day with some waves watching from a pier it's even hard to make out buoys that are farther away than a few hundred meters down the beach. Even if you know where they are they bob into and out of your view constantly. Even at night when the promenade and the pier are brightly lit it's very hard to make out any details on the water. I once heard a boat with an outboard motor approach and couldn't see it until it was almost below the pier. Had I stood on a destroyer or merchant making a racket with it's own engines I wouldn't even have heard it. Granted: I didn't have binoculars.

[Lanzfeld]

Originally Posted by Lanzfeld

Does SH-3 Commander also randomize the amount of time the escorts spend looking for me in GWX everytime I start the game like random thermal layers? Up to 45 minutes?

Just wanted to ask again please.

[StandingCow]

Yes! Excellent advice! If you are being pinged, you want your engines at flank, and doing some manuevers.

Once the Depth charges and pinging stops. run silent, because he is listening for you.

[Kumando]

Originally Posted by StandingCow

Yes! Excellent advice! If you are being pinged, you want your engines at flank, and doing some manuevers.

Once the Depth charges and pinging stops. run silent, because he is listening for you.

I wouldnt do that if i were you.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally Posted by Lanzfeld

Just wanted to ask again please.

Yes, it generates a random time from 15 to 45 minutes each time you launch SH3 Commander.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Kumando

I wouldnt do that if i were you.

Yeah i really poorly worded that part didn't i? With multiple escorts there is ALWAYS somebody listening. With a single escort its not so determental.

[Kumando]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Yeah i really poorly worded that part didn't i? With multiple escorts there is ALWAYS somebody listening. With a single escort its not so determental.

Even with a single escort if you run in flank and he is pinging he will hear you the same way i have tried flank in pinging and guessa what i was not sucsessfull.

[Wulfmann]

That should be made a sticky.

Too many are complaining the problem is with GWX AI or sensors but I am sure it is their lack of understanding on enacting tactics at the correct time.

One of the things I know works is when an AI is pinging and lining you up and dropping a string you going to flank speed and changing direction to be going 90 degrees from the course of that string is often the difference of life and death.
Making a turn at 2 knots will leave you in the drop zone and damaged requiring repair (goinmg off silent running)assuring constant location known to enemy.
If he is dropping on you he knows where you are at and remaining undamaged is now the most important aspect of the battle. As soon as one has cleared the drop (heard first explosions) a drop of RPMs (2 knots) and a further 45% change of course means he can't hear you and then must reestablish sonar contact. Being undamaged gives one the chance of being undetected again.

I am going to copy that and save that post for future reference and advise others do if at least to quote for the next Kaleun that believes its GWX doing something wrong when it is him!

Super!

Wulfmann

[Mooncatt]

i aint complaining i made it thru the channel last night with 5+DDS around me

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by mooncatt

i aint complaining i made it thru the channel last night with 5+DDS around me

Where did you download the cloaking device from ?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Kumando

Even with a single escort if you run in flank and he is pinging he will hear you the same way i have tried flank in pinging and guessa what i was not sucsessfull.

True, but you can loose him very easily. That's why i dont think its THAT determental with a single tin can. Unless of course he gets help. Still though, i guess ill reword that little bit in the orginal post to cut down on confusion.

[Mooncatt]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Where did you download the cloaking device from ?

:rotfl: :rotfl: good call jim.

to answer this i did nothing special at all just silent running 3knts and as deep as poss which was about 30m IIRC (i used it. jimbuna knows what i mean )