Sound contacts on the surface?

[brandtryan]

Often enough, I get reports from the SO, of sound contacts while I'm cruising on the surface. I thought you had to be submerged to get sound contacts?

[Powerthighs]

Yes, in the stock game you can detect cotnacts on sonar while surfaced, which isn't realistic.

The Trigger Maru mod modifies this to remove the surface detection. If you don't want to install that perhaps someone can post the specific change and you can make it yourself.

[brandtryan]

Thanks Power

[Rockin Robbins]

It is perfectly realistic to receive sound contacts on the surface. If you'll use your external camera, you can travel under your boat to see the two sonar heads below the forward torpedo room, which always protrude at least 15' below the surface of the water, even when the submarine is on the surface.

Yes, the diesel engines were noisy, making use more difficult on the surface, but they were still useful. The sonar operator had a full set of attenuation filters to filter out frequencies of on-board sounds and amplify sounds coming from outside the boat, where our game sonar is much too simplified to appreciate the sophistication they enjoyed. Using sonar on the surface was done, and contacts were found in that configuration during the war.

However, the cries of the wrong have been so loud that even Ducimus has removed surface contacts from sonar in Trigger Maru, because nothing is louder and more indignant than the voice of the ignorant.

The problem is most of us (including myself) aren't old enough to be able to merely lower the volume on our hearing aids to ignore their prattle.:rotfl:

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

It is perfectly realistic to receive sound contacts on the surface. If you'll use your external camera, you can travel under your boat to see the two sonar heads below the forward torpedo room, which always protrude at least 15' below the surface of the water, even when the submarine is on the surface.

Yes, the diesel engines were noisy, making use more difficult on the surface, but they were still useful. The sonar operator had a full set of attenuation filters to filter out frequencies of on-board sounds and amplify sounds coming from outside the boat, where our game sonar is much too simplified to appreciate the sophistication they enjoyed. Using sonar on the surface was done, and contacts were found in that configuration during the war.

However, the cries of the wrong have been so loud that even Ducimus has removed surface contacts from sonar in Trigger Maru, because nothing is louder and more indignant than the voice of the ignorant.

The problem is that the sonar heads mounted on the keel were more for supersonic listening (i.e., picking up pings and such) instead of sonic listening. Sonic listening was the domain of the sonar head mounted on the forward deck:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/sonar/chap1.htm#1A

Yes, it is true sonic sounds could be picked up on the surface, but that only happened at very slow speeds. Now, given the way it's modeled now, do you want a surface sonar that's too good at picking up sounds (and thus pretty much rendering watch crews irrelevant) or one that's closer to reality? I'll take option B, thank you.

[PapaG39]

sometimes I find myself thinking... I wish that the game would come out with no way to mod it unless you go through the creaters of the game.
The games are usually fine until so many people drama up some scenario that they know just isn't right & bitch until someone dhanges it for them even though a lot of others like things just the way they are/were.

My thinking is: If you don't want to use such and such...then don't!

I think we all gripe to much about things that we really don't know that much about, but think we do...

I was around in 1940, but I really don't know much about how WWII machinery really operated....lol.. hell, I learned to drive on a 1929 Model A truck... & my first car was a 1938 Pymouth, but I still don't know that much about 1940 sonar on a U-boat other then they found ships with it...lol..

it is just a-game...

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

The problem is that the sonar heads mounted on the keel were more for supersonic listening (i.e., picking up pings and such) instead of sonic listening. Sonic listening was the domain of the sonar head mounted on the forward deck:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/sonar/chap1.htm#1A

Yes, it is true sonic sounds could be picked up on the surface, but that only happened at very slow speeds. Now, given the way it's modeled now, do you want a surface sonar that's too good at picking up sounds (and thus pretty much rendering watch crews irrelevant) or one that's closer to reality? I'll take option B, thank you.

Cool link! Thanks!

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

The problem is that the sonar heads mounted on the keel were more for supersonic listening (i.e., picking up pings and such) instead of sonic listening. Sonic listening was the domain of the sonar head mounted on the forward deck:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/sonar/chap1.htm#1A

Yes, it is true sonic sounds could be picked up on the surface, but that only happened at very slow speeds. Now, given the way it's modeled now, do you want a surface sonar that's too good at picking up sounds (and thus pretty much rendering watch crews irrelevant) or one that's closer to reality? I'll take option B, thank you.

That's fine, but you should read further where they are speaking about use of the WCA sonar.

Securing WCA gear
When your submarine surfaces, you will continue searching. While it is running at a slow speed, you will be able to listen efficiently. But at higher speeds the noise becomes so great that you will have to report to the conning officer: "QB, listening conditions poor." Probably you will then be ordered to secure the gear. Here is the way to secure:

The word "efficiently" means they could expect to find contacts using that method on the surface. Ahead 2/3 at 7 or 8 knots cannot by any means be called "higher speeds." However, in a manual we get no feel whatever for the number of contacts actually developed from the sonar sensors under the hull, only that it was possible and expected. Slightly earlier in the manual it speaks of getting screw counts from these sonar heads. It was a separate operator from the one that you quote in chapter 1 that operated these sonar heads, as the skills were quite different.

So the real question is, are the capabilities of these heads grossly overmodeled in the game? The answer to that question would have to come directly from the sub logs themselves stating "QB contact" or "JK/QC contact" for under hull or "JP contact" for the sonar head on deck. Then a statistical study would have to be made to determine real wartime capabilities based on the evidence. I don't have access to that information.

TATER!!!!!!! HELP!!!!!!!

In the meantime I'm using Trigger Maru unaltered and not feeling too crippled. I can't imagine too many instances where sonar could outdistance radar, except when I'm submerged. The only important thing we are missing is the ability to ping a target during a surface attack. That is a regrettable loss.

By the way, Luke's link to the sonar manual for WWII submarines is good for killing several hours of fascinating reading. Wonder when PC simulators will be good enough to reproduce even half of that? Anybody think those men of the 1940's were a bunch of simpletons? Read and marvel!

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Powerthighs

Yes, in the stock game you can detect cotnacts on sonar while surfaced, which isn't realistic.

The Trigger Maru mod modifies this to remove the surface detection. If you don't want to install that perhaps someone can post the specific change and you can make it yourself.

This is incorrect. Sonar does work on the surface. Under the sub's chin were sonar heads that can detect supersonic sounds while surfaced. Come on down to the USS Torsk and listen to the harbor traffic on the sonar if you get a chance to visit the boat in the Baltimore Harbor. Bear in mind though that the sonar is a bit too good in the game. You can read about Batfish listening while surfaced but the engines are at ahead slow. Best used if engines at idle or off. As far as TM removing this function, IMHO it should have stayed.

[AVGWarhawk]

RR:
So the real question is, are the capabilities of these heads grossly overmodeled in the game? The answer to that question would have to come directly from the sub logs themselves stating "QB contact" or "JK/QC contact" for under hull or "JP contact" for the sonar head on deck. Then a statistical study would have to be made to determine real wartime capabilities based on the evidence. I don't have access to that information.

I do not think the sonar is grossly overmodeled but we do have the absense of natural noises in the water. These noises that need to be filter out if possible. But, the books about and by the skippers did in fact state the sonar works while surfaced and I can tell you from personal experience with the USS Torsk, they do work while surfaced. I spend many a Saturday on the Torsk tracking the water taxis with the Torsk sonar

[Laffertytig]

so in actual fact RFB has it pretty much spot on then? if we were to play 100% realistic we'd have to stop or slow down everynow and again for it to work which i just term as more micro management.

only one thing though, is sonar (radar should be as well) affected by sea state in SH4?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Laffertytig

so in actual fact RFB has it pretty much spot on then? if we were to play 100% realistic we'd have to stop or slow down everynow and again for it to work which i just term as more micro management.

only one thing though, is sonar (radar should be as well) affected by sea state in SH4?

Yes, IMHO we should be forced to slow down to use the sonar while surfaced. Heck, at flank it works a bit to well. Sea state should and did affect sonar and radar alike. Radar would pick up rain squalls and island masses were the game does not. Sonar had to contend with density of the water and the noise of it's own engines. Despite all of this, most if not all skippers felt that the men up on the watch were your best defense and offense for spotting and tracking vessels.

I have not used RFB so I can not comment on that aspect.

[Rockin Robbins]

If a cutoff speed could be set: like 12 knots, above which the sonar wouldn't work.

In RL it would still work and you would detect water going by the hull and engine noise from your own sub. :rotfl:Contact! Close range! Bearing 180! Range constant!

[Ducimus]

However, the cries of the wrong have been so loud that even Ducimus has removed surface contacts from sonar in Trigger Maru

I removed surface hydrophone contacts of my own volition. My reasons were thus.

1.) it was interfering with the radar sensor. A sporatic problem, but it occured often enough that it bugged me.

2.) The reliablity was a little TOO good. With hdyrophones being so accurate and relaible, it eclipsed the need for radar.

3.) Made searching for traffic in the earlly war, entirely too easy.


I have tried experimenting with the sensors.cfg to limit its effectiveness on the surface, and failed to make any progress on that. Had i been able to reduce it so you can't hear anything when traveling above 4 or 5 kts, i would have renabled surface hydrophone contacts. Since i couldnt, i left it disabled.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

[1.) it was interfering with the radar sensor. A sporatic problem, but it occured often enough that it bugged me.

You're right on that one. It seems that SH4 argues with itself about which sensor to show since it can only show one at a time. If it defaulted to radar we wouldn't even have to worry about it except for on a sub without radar.

I still have a problem with not being able to ping targets while on the surface. I consider that a much bigger defect than the problem, as long as the sub has radar.

And while we're complaining, why can't we feed radar bearing and distance to the TDC like the real skippers did? Even if they let us manually input the bearing and range, it would have been OK. But we're stuck inputting bearing with periscope only and manually inputting range only within 1100 yards or so. I think that's also a worse defect than anything going on with the sonar. And it's not moddable.