[WIP] IRAI (Intelligent Random AI) - Page 94

Rongel · 06-07-11, 02:23 AM

Sounds really good

.

I can't wait to start a new career and play the game this time from start to finish. But must wait until this and Zedi's campaign are ready....

I hope that TDW's water disturbance mod still works with the new IRAI and gives us a small chance to escape. Oh, could it be included in this new release?

Zedi · 06-07-11, 02:30 AM

TDW, hope you dont forget to remind the escorts why they are next to a convoy. They main role is to keep the danger away and ensure that the load is delivered in safety at the destination.. if possible, under a year. If they start again to leave the convoy and 6-12 DD + a carrier is hunting a single sub for days, thats just a realism killer.

Is why it would be fantastic if you can play with their tactics according to a specific timeframe. Indeed, after 43 the escorts became sub hunters and they were ordered to hunt-kill. But not all. Let 2-3 DD to entertain the player, but keep the rest of the convoy on move.

Adriatico · 06-07-11, 04:52 AM

If I understand... Escorts have to strictly protect convoys...
One or two could start chasing submarine... leave the convoy formation for 15-20 minutes - but to leave convoy "opened" (undefended) from one side it would be carnage against wolfpack !?!

Obelix · 06-07-11, 06:52 AM

As we refine ASW escorts actually are placed on large distances from the convoy, it did not allow boats to get close to cargo ships. Apparently this has become possible with increased number of escort ships. The main task of escorts and air power was to drive the boat under water and hold it there as long as possible, which deprived the boat likely to attack the convoy. Was not necessarily her to drown. Sinking already engaged in group hunting for submarines.

Zedi · 06-07-11, 07:32 AM

Thats correct. But after Black May, they were ordered to hunt down the subs. So 1 or 2 escorts may stay to play for a while, but not all... and most important, never a capital ship should change course and hunt a sub, is not their role. Is what I didn't liked in IRAI and I really hope this will be changed in the next version.

Adriatico · 06-07-11, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zedi

...and most important, never a capital ship should change course and hunt a sub, is not their role. Is what I didn't liked in IRAI and I really hope this will be changed in the next version.

...capital ship - turn to hunting sub ?!?
There is no point in changing "vanila" nonsense - into mod nonsense.

Zedi · 06-07-11, 08:57 AM

I think TDW changed a bit this part.. I reported many times carriers and cruisers hunting me for days and cutting in half every other DD that was in her path. Last time I meet a convoy with a BB, I hit her by mistake because I was using acoustic torpedoes.. after being hit, she left the scene on full speed leaving the convoy far behind, but a cruiser from the convoy came to investigate and sunk one of the escorts that was not fast enough to avoid her.

That was with v0.28.. not sure if this was changed since, had no time to play anymore.

TheDarkWraith · 06-07-11, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rongel

I hope that TDW's water disturbance mod still works with the new IRAI and gives us a small chance to escape. Oh, could it be included in this new release?

The water disturbance mod will still work with new version of IRAI. Including it probably won't happen because that would defeat the user's choice of whether they wanted it or not. I like options and I know others do to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zedi

TDW, hope you dont forget to remind the escorts why they are next to a convoy. They main role is to keep the danger away and ensure that the load is delivered in safety at the destination.. if possible, under a year. If they start again to leave the convoy and 6-12 DD + a carrier is hunting a single sub for days, thats just a realism killer.

Is why it would be fantastic if you can play with their tactics according to a specific timeframe. Indeed, after 43 the escorts became sub hunters and they were ordered to hunt-kill. But not all. Let 2-3 DD to entertain the player, but keep the rest of the convoy on move.

I don't have the ability to define tactics vs game year. Thus I have to make compromises.

I am revising all the tactics used in this rewrite. Convoys (non-HK) will have escorts that are given the protect convoy and guard convoy roles. These roles only allow them to attack and pursue contacts for unlimited time frames (I don't have the ability to see how far the unit is from the convoy thus I can't define a max distance from the convoy. I also do not have the ability to see how long the unit has been pursuing a contact thus I can't define a max time that they can pursue/attack the contact. I only have the ability to see how long they have 'lost' a contact) Guard convoy roles will not attack or pursue a contact unless they are 'inside' the convoy. Protect convoy roles can attack and pursue contacts that are outside the convoy (as well as inside the convoy). Now if Battleships are part of the convoy then one will be assigned guard convoy role and one will be assigned protect convoy role. The rest will be assigned the convoy role (follow leader). I have to do this because it's possible that some convoys contain no escorts but have battleships. This means that battleships could come hunting you (along with escorts) if you try to attack a convoy. If I don't add the battleships then you could have a convoy that contains no escorts but has all battleships and if you attacked it none of the battleships would do anything (and people would be upset because they would say the AI is stupid).

HK convoys will have guard convoy and protect convoys roles also but they will also have plaster (DC) roles. Plaster roles allow the escort to attack and pursue the contact (DCing it) but differ from guard convoy and protect convoy in the way they search for a 'lost' contact and how long they search when the contact is 'lost'. Plaster roles now take into account the unit's crew rating for how effective they are at DCing the contact (and searching for the contact after they have lost it). Protect convoy and guard convoy roles have the ability to plaster also but the way they search for a 'lost' contact (and the timeframe of that search) depends on their respective role. Once again, if Battleships are part of the HK convoy then one will be assigned guard convoy role and one will be assigned protect convoy role. The rest will be assigned the convoy role (follow leader). I have to do this because it's possible that some HK convoys contain no escorts but have battleships. This means that battleships could come hunting you (along with escorts) if you try to attack an HK convoy. If I don't add the battleships then you could have an HK convoy that contains no escorts but has all battleships and if you attacked it none of the battleships would do anything (and people would be upset because they would say the AI is stupid).

Now since escorts and battleships are assigned protect convoy and guard convoy roles, it's possible that you could have MANY units attacking you depending on where you are in relation to the convoy. If you are outside the convoy then ALL the units assigned to protect convoy (and those with the plaster role also) will come hunting you (if you are spotted). If you are inside the convoy then ALL the units assigned guard convoy and protect convoy (and plaster roles also) will come hunting you (if you are spotted). I haven't decided yet how many units will be assigned guard convoy and protect convoy in the convoys. I'm thinking a max of 2 units assigned guard convoy and a max of 2 units assigned protect convoy for each convoy. If battleships are present then 1 of the 2 will be an escort and the other will be a battleship. If no escorts (or no battleships) then only 1 will be assigned each role. Keep in mind that if a Battleship is assigned guard convoy or protect convoy role and it has no DCs it will just keep making passes over you trying to ram you if you surface.

Those units remaining (escorts, battleships, merchants) that were not assigned guard convoy or protect convoy (or any other role) will be assigned the convoy role (follow leader). The convoy role makes the unit follow the leader and not break formation (unless torpedo spotted). The convoy role does allow them to attack a contact they spot with guns (and DCs if able to and contact is near/under them)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriatico

If I understand... Escorts have to strictly protect convoys...
One or two could start chasing submarine... leave the convoy formation for 15-20 minutes - but to leave convoy "opened" (undefended) from one side it would be carnage against wolfpack !?!

I cannot define a max time that a unit can hunt/pursue a contact. The game does not allow me to do this.

The convoys will never be left 'opened' or undefended. There will always be an escort (or more) and/or a battleship (or more) present with the convoy (either in protect convoy, guard convoy, or convoy role)
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zedi

I think TDW changed a bit this part.. I reported many times carriers and cruisers hunting me for days and cutting in half every other DD that was in her path. Last time I meet a convoy with a BB, I hit her by mistake because I was using acoustic torpedoes.. after being hit, she left the scene on full speed leaving the convoy far behind, but a cruiser from the convoy came to investigate and sunk one of the escorts that was not fast enough to avoid her.

The game defines carriers as battleships. Cruisers are also defined as battleships. This makes it very hard to distinguish between them when assigning roles. If a battleship is assigned protect convoy, guard convoy, or plaster role and they spot you then they will circle you at some random distance (yet to be coded) if you are submerged. If you are surfaced then they will try to ram you.

The AI's collision avoidance isn't the best and there's nothing I can do about it (hard coded).

Zedi · 06-07-11, 01:08 PM

I disagree with the capital ships role. They never ever have to engage a sub. These ships are just to valorous to be let to even get close to a sub, not to mention that they are not so easy to maneuver as a small DD. So every capital ship should start zig zag, increase speed and get the hell out from the attack scene while the DD's start the hunt and do everything possible to keep the sub far.

But the capital ship should have a major role against any surface/air unit, is where they take over the lead. And for a capital ship no need to be close to the sub to own it when surfaced. I was hit right in the face by a BB from 18km away.. those guys are just deadly for anything that float.

The carriers are launching planes on attack, but they also need to keep distance from the sub, so maybe you can learn them to always keep a safe distance somehow. I know is easy to sya, but damn difficult to make it happen.

What is working absolutely awesome in IRAI now is the ships vs air raid, booth are very clever. The planes bomb everything that moves, but they have a passion on escorts. After the escorts are done.. the convoy is doomed.

Bad part it that the whole convoy is circling when under attack, instead of sailing away asap. If they start circling instead of zig zag and leaving the battle, the attacking planes keep reporting the convoy then more and more planes will come, so at one point there will be more planes than ships.

never understood whats with those HK groups fro a convoy? What do you exactly mean by this? Convoys are formed like this
X generic cargo 100%
X generic tanker 100%
X generic cargo 30%

X generic destroyer 100%
X generic corvette 80%
X generic BB 10%

I see no HK group defined.. how do you spot them?

TheDarkWraith · 06-07-11, 01:56 PM

IRAI defines an HK group as a convoy (> 1 ship) that contains no merchants.

Air vs ship battles will be even better in v1.0.0 as the ship's have gotten 'smarter' in their evasion tactics against airplanes. When the airplane is closing in at close range the ship will try and turn 90 degrees to the airplane while also going to ahead flank speed

Convoys will start zig-zagging and make random speed changes when they spot an airplane. They will also try and turn 90 degrees to the airplane when they are closing in at close range.

I haven't worked on improving the air AI yet (not sure if I can make it any better than I already have)

I think we need to have a discussion about the capitol ships AI. Capitol ships being Battleships, Cruisers, and Aircraft carriers (game classifies all these as battleships). Since I am rewriting basically everything I want to get this to where we all want it to be.

We need to discuss their tactics in the following situations:
- HK group where they are the only warships (no escorts and no merchants)
- HK group where they have escorts also (and escort is leader of the convoy)
- Convoy (has merchants) where there are no escorts (one battleship will be leader)
- Convoy (has merchants) where there are escorts (one escort will be leader)

and for each situation above we need to take into account what to do against ship, sub, unknown, and airplane for it. i.e.:

HK group where they are the only warship tactic against:
- sub:
- ship:
- unknown:
- airplane:

In these situations what should the battleships do? We need to discuss what the leader should do (if it's a battleship) and what the remaining battleships should do. i.e.:

HK group where they are the only warship and is leader tactic against:
- sub:
- ship:
- unknown:
- airplane:

HK group where they are the only warship and is not leader tactic against:
- sub:
- ship:
- unknown:
- airplane:

Any other scenarios I didn't mention please bring up.

I'm open to suggestions/comments so please don't hesitate to mention what's on your mind.

Right now is the time for me to make new tactics/revise existing tactics. After I release this version it's not going to be so easy to change as I'm streamlining the code to reduce memory usage and to remove duplicate/similar tactics.

Targor Avelany · 06-07-11, 02:16 PM

just wanted to say - tip hat to all the modders who are making this game awesome. TDW: /bow to your knowledge and skill.

Almost making me seriously think to dust off my unfinished computer skills and see if I can help with anything.

More on the topic, this discussion can be somewhat tricky, as there is a good number of coniditons and "ifs" to each scenario.

I think it is also important that since there is no ability do define tactics based on the year, it is important to attempt to balance these tactics between early war and the end of the war, as it seems from Zedi's comment, that the tactics have changed. Based on that - people will have to settle for more aggressive tactics at the start of the war (compare to RL) and less aggressive in the end of the war...

I'll continue my thoughts later when I will be able to arrange them more properly and hopefully not to piss anyone off, as I'm just a regular gamer at the moment...

TheDarkWraith · 06-07-11, 02:24 PM

As I defined the scenarois for which the Capitol ships can find themselves in that pretty much rules out any 'ifs'. Yes I could write tons of code to cover pretty much every possible scenario and 'if' but 1) it's not feasible, 2) would take months to do, 3) would be a nightmare to debug/troubleshoot, and 4) there's no reason to do so. By defining what they do in the scenarios posted it will cover > 95% of the situations that they will be in.

Single ship AI I have completed and is working excellent (merchants, escorts, sub, battleships, and airplanes). It's when you start putting these units into convoys is where it starts getting tricky.

Zedi · 06-07-11, 02:34 PM

Capital ships alone ? If anyone spotted a situation like this in the campaign, please give details about the location so I try track down the source and fix it. A BB never should sail alone out on the sea without protection and merchants are not a protection. Beside, a capital ships cant do much against a sub anyway as they cannot be maneuvered fast and easy as a destroyer. They should stay far on a safe distance and interfere only if a surface or air contact is spotted.

TheDarkWraith · 06-07-11, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zedi

Capital ships alone ? If anyone spotted a situation like this in the campaign, please give details about the location so I try track down the source and fix it. A BB never should sail alone out on the sea without protection and merchants are not a protection. Beside, a capital ships cant do much against a sub anyway as they cannot be maneuvered fast and easy as a destroyer. They should stay far on a safe distance and interfere only if a surface or air contact is spotted.

A capitol ship can find itself in this situation if it's escort is destroyed and it has other capitol ships with it (could have been a convoy of battleships with a single escort). There are many other possibilities as to how a captiol ship can find itself in these situations. And because of these situations I have to make tactics for it.

Zedi · 06-07-11, 04:27 PM

If such a situation occur, only solutions is.. speed. Think of the Bismarck and Eugen, these guys can hit multiple targets even at max speed. If a capital ship is left alone with a convoy.. zig zag and speed is again the only solution against a sub.

But owning a capital ship should be impossible. Since I use IRAI, I never was able to hit one because they detect the torpedo and increase the speed. Only chance was when I used a acoustic torpedo, but even then I cant understand how come my torpedo was faster than the BB... is the main reason why we rework the campaign and remove the capital ships hunt. If you own one, should be luck or a docked/damaged ship.

06-07-11, 04:52 AM	#1398
Adriatico Grey Wolf Join Date: May 2007 Location: Periscope depth Posts: 860 Downloads: 119 Uploads: 0	If I understand... Escorts have to strictly protect convoys... One or two could start chasing submarine... leave the convoy formation for 15-20 minutes - but to leave convoy "opened" (undefended) from one side it would be carnage against wolfpack !?! __________________ Last edited by Adriatico; 06-07-11 at 05:47 AM.

06-07-11, 06:52 AM	#1399
Obelix Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: 49°44´N 129°40´E Posts: 665 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 7	As we refine ASW escorts actually are placed on large distances from the convoy, it did not allow boats to get close to cargo ships. Apparently this has become possible with increased number of escort ships. The main task of escorts and air power was to drive the boat under water and hold it there as long as possible, which deprived the boat likely to attack the convoy. Was not necessarily her to drown. Sinking already engaged in group hunting for submarines. __________________ Speed squadron is the speed of the slowest ship ... but only so long as on the trail of the squadron did not sit submarines ...

06-07-11, 01:56 PM	#1405
TheDarkWraith Black Magic Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 11,962 Downloads: 147 Uploads: 5	IRAI defines an HK group as a convoy (> 1 ship) that contains no merchants. Air vs ship battles will be even better in v1.0.0 as the ship's have gotten 'smarter' in their evasion tactics against airplanes. When the airplane is closing in at close range the ship will try and turn 90 degrees to the airplane while also going to ahead flank speed Convoys will start zig-zagging and make random speed changes when they spot an airplane. They will also try and turn 90 degrees to the airplane when they are closing in at close range. I haven't worked on improving the air AI yet (not sure if I can make it any better than I already have) I think we need to have a discussion about the capitol ships AI. Capitol ships being Battleships, Cruisers, and Aircraft carriers (game classifies all these as battleships). Since I am rewriting basically everything I want to get this to where we all want it to be. We need to discuss their tactics in the following situations: - HK group where they are the only warships (no escorts and no merchants) - HK group where they have escorts also (and escort is leader of the convoy) - Convoy (has merchants) where there are no escorts (one battleship will be leader) - Convoy (has merchants) where there are escorts (one escort will be leader) and for each situation above we need to take into account what to do against ship, sub, unknown, and airplane for it. i.e.: HK group where they are the only warship tactic against: - sub: - ship: - unknown: - airplane: In these situations what should the battleships do? We need to discuss what the leader should do (if it's a battleship) and what the remaining battleships should do. i.e.: HK group where they are the only warship and is leader tactic against: - sub: - ship: - unknown: - airplane: HK group where they are the only warship and is not leader tactic against: - sub: - ship: - unknown: - airplane: Any other scenarios I didn't mention please bring up. I'm open to suggestions/comments so please don't hesitate to mention what's on your mind. Right now is the time for me to make new tactics/revise existing tactics. After I release this version it's not going to be so easy to change as I'm streamlining the code to reduce memory usage and to remove duplicate/similar tactics. Last edited by TheDarkWraith; 06-07-11 at 02:26 PM.

06-07-11, 02:23 AM	#1396
Rongel Grey Wolf Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Finland Posts: 859 Downloads: 174 Uploads: 0	Sounds really good . I can't wait to start a new career and play the game this time from start to finish. But must wait until this and Zedi's campaign are ready.... I hope that TDW's water disturbance mod still works with the new IRAI and gives us a small chance to escape. Oh, could it be included in this new release?

06-07-11, 02:30 AM	#1397
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	TDW, hope you dont forget to remind the escorts why they are next to a convoy. They main role is to keep the danger away and ensure that the load is delivered in safety at the destination.. if possible, under a year. If they start again to leave the convoy and 6-12 DD + a carrier is hunting a single sub for days, thats just a realism killer. Is why it would be fantastic if you can play with their tactics according to a specific timeframe. Indeed, after 43 the escorts became sub hunters and they were ordered to hunt-kill. But not all. Let 2-3 DD to entertain the player, but keep the rest of the convoy on move.

06-07-11, 07:32 AM	#1400
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	Thats correct. But after Black May, they were ordered to hunt down the subs. So 1 or 2 escorts may stay to play for a while, but not all... and most important, never a capital ship should change course and hunt a sub, is not their role. Is what I didn't liked in IRAI and I really hope this will be changed in the next version.

06-07-11, 08:57 AM	#1402
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	I think TDW changed a bit this part.. I reported many times carriers and cruisers hunting me for days and cutting in half every other DD that was in her path. Last time I meet a convoy with a BB, I hit her by mistake because I was using acoustic torpedoes.. after being hit, she left the scene on full speed leaving the convoy far behind, but a cruiser from the convoy came to investigate and sunk one of the escorts that was not fast enough to avoid her. That was with v0.28.. not sure if this was changed since, had no time to play anymore.

06-07-11, 01:08 PM	#1404
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	I disagree with the capital ships role. They never ever have to engage a sub. These ships are just to valorous to be let to even get close to a sub, not to mention that they are not so easy to maneuver as a small DD. So every capital ship should start zig zag, increase speed and get the hell out from the attack scene while the DD's start the hunt and do everything possible to keep the sub far. But the capital ship should have a major role against any surface/air unit, is where they take over the lead. And for a capital ship no need to be close to the sub to own it when surfaced. I was hit right in the face by a BB from 18km away.. those guys are just deadly for anything that float. The carriers are launching planes on attack, but they also need to keep distance from the sub, so maybe you can learn them to always keep a safe distance somehow. I know is easy to sya, but damn difficult to make it happen. What is working absolutely awesome in IRAI now is the ships vs air raid, booth are very clever. The planes bomb everything that moves, but they have a passion on escorts. After the escorts are done.. the convoy is doomed. Bad part it that the whole convoy is circling when under attack, instead of sailing away asap. If they start circling instead of zig zag and leaving the battle, the attacking planes keep reporting the convoy then more and more planes will come, so at one point there will be more planes than ships. never understood whats with those HK groups fro a convoy? What do you exactly mean by this? Convoys are formed like this X generic cargo 100% X generic tanker 100% X generic cargo 30% X generic destroyer 100% X generic corvette 80% X generic BB 10% I see no HK group defined.. how do you spot them?

06-07-11, 02:16 PM	#1406
Targor Avelany Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Posts: 1,183 Downloads: 225 Uploads: 0	just wanted to say - tip hat to all the modders who are making this game awesome. TDW: /bow to your knowledge and skill. Almost making me seriously think to dust off my unfinished computer skills and see if I can help with anything. More on the topic, this discussion can be somewhat tricky, as there is a good number of coniditons and "ifs" to each scenario. I think it is also important that since there is no ability do define tactics based on the year, it is important to attempt to balance these tactics between early war and the end of the war, as it seems from Zedi's comment, that the tactics have changed. Based on that - people will have to settle for more aggressive tactics at the start of the war (compare to RL) and less aggressive in the end of the war... I'll continue my thoughts later when I will be able to arrange them more properly and hopefully not to piss anyone off, as I'm just a regular gamer at the moment...

06-07-11, 02:24 PM	#1407
TheDarkWraith Black Magic Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 11,962 Downloads: 147 Uploads: 5	As I defined the scenarois for which the Capitol ships can find themselves in that pretty much rules out any 'ifs'. Yes I could write tons of code to cover pretty much every possible scenario and 'if' but 1) it's not feasible, 2) would take months to do, 3) would be a nightmare to debug/troubleshoot, and 4) there's no reason to do so. By defining what they do in the scenarios posted it will cover > 95% of the situations that they will be in. Single ship AI I have completed and is working excellent (merchants, escorts, sub, battleships, and airplanes). It's when you start putting these units into convoys is where it starts getting tricky.

06-07-11, 02:34 PM	#1408
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	Capital ships alone ? If anyone spotted a situation like this in the campaign, please give details about the location so I try track down the source and fix it. A BB never should sail alone out on the sea without protection and merchants are not a protection. Beside, a capital ships cant do much against a sub anyway as they cannot be maneuvered fast and easy as a destroyer. They should stay far on a safe distance and interfere only if a surface or air contact is spotted.

06-07-11, 04:27 PM	#1410
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	If such a situation occur, only solutions is.. speed. Think of the Bismarck and Eugen, these guys can hit multiple targets even at max speed. If a capital ship is left alone with a convoy.. zig zag and speed is again the only solution against a sub. But owning a capital ship should be impossible. Since I use IRAI, I never was able to hit one because they detect the torpedo and increase the speed. Only chance was when I used a acoustic torpedo, but even then I cant understand how come my torpedo was faster than the BB... is the main reason why we rework the campaign and remove the capital ships hunt. If you own one, should be luck or a docked/damaged ship.