realism vs. pleasure of game

[raduz]

i play the sh3 "vanilla" version since 2 months, on 98 percent realism and till now i used to think it was difficult enough. however, it seems to me that some people here push the realism too far... i mean, i started to play the game with automatic targetting but then i saw there are players who only use the manual targeting. so i turned it off as i didnt want to sink the ships too easy. i also turned off the map contact update.

then i learned how to hunt the enemy using the bdu contacts. but again, i have seen players using just "all grey contacts" without the tail. so i installed the all grey contacts mod...

some time passed and i sent down a lot of british tonnage but then again, i learned that the skilled players doesnt ask the WO for precise range. so i stopped to use it.

then i learned it is possible to determinate the range and the speed of the enemy using the periscope and the range charts. so i used it a couple of days but then i realized i have the periscope stabilized. so i turned off the scope stabilization to make the range estimation more difficult, even impossible in bad weather or at long range.


then i started to use the hydrophone (i only use the passive sonar, not ping). thanks to the excellent tutorial by greyrider, cpt.nautilus and another one by dantenoc, i am now able (not always, off course) to intercept the ship traveling 34 km away using the RPM chart, to determine its course and speed and sink it using the scope just for ID and shot. plotting the enemys position, counting his rpm and often diving costs me a lot of time , however, i like it. but....

but... some people say : using the SO information about long/medium/short range is a cheat, it is not real because this way you learn the exact range to the contact! some other peple say: do not overuse the hydrophone! during the ww2, the majority of u-boats prey has been spotted not heard! install the gw mod to turn the RPM count off! ok... however, as far as i know, during the ww2, it really has been possible to determinate the speed of the ship using the RPM if you knew the ships class. on the other side, if i want to intercept the ship just visually, when i see it, it can see me too. it can start to do evasive manoeuvres. besides that, how am i supposed to determinate the range and the speed if i am not allowed to use RPM count,WO precise range assistance, weather is bad and the waves are so high you cant use the scope??

and thats not all yet. i saw the video tutorial by dantenoc (hardcore navigation) showing how to sail without seeing your position on the map. man... i appreciate it and i think the idea of faking the sextant approach is wonderful... but... i ask myself - should i turn off my position on the map? do you guys play it this way? i think that updating yours and the enemys position on the map in the same time must be extremely difficult and there has to be a lot of errors.

where are the limits between the reality (which will never be 100 percent as it is just a simulation) and the pleasure of game? i dont mind the high realism settings but we all know that one man (i mean the player) has to do the job that has been done by 30-40 people during the war... and this is completly unreal.

i just want to ask if there are "hardcore" kaleuns playing the SH3 without using the WO assistance, hydrophone for precise speed, without seeing the u-boat position on the map, on 100 percent realism of course, and if so, what approach do they use for determinate the range and the speed of the enemy? is it a pure estimation? or did i miss some special method? if there really are people like that, my hat off... i still have to learn a lot.



100k club member (but maybe only because of low realism settings)

Originally Posted by raduz

i just want to ask if there are "hardcore" kaleuns playing the SH3 without using the WO assistance, hydrophone for precise speed, without seeing the u-boat position on the map, on 100 percent realism of course, and if so, what approach do they use for determinate the range and the speed of the enemy? is it a pure estimation? or did i miss some special method? if there really are people like that, my hat off... i still have to learn a lot.



100k club member (but maybe only because of low realism settings)

Fantastic post! Only reason I didn't quote the whole thing was to save space.

Your topic title says it all: some people play for the realism, and some just to play, and most somewhere down the middle. There really is no right or wrong way to enjoy the game. It's all simply personal preference.

Myself? I have, at times, played 100% realism, with every 'assist' I'm aware of turned off. Mostly I play with auto targeting, if only for the reason you mentioned: I'm one person, and targeting and firing took quite a few people working hand-in-hand together.

There are tons of threads, tutorials and articles on how to set up firing solutions with absolutely no assist. I'm sure lots of people will be responding and give you their tips and techniques.

As for me, my way probably isn't the greatest. This is what I do at 100% realism, and no in-game 'assistance'. Once I've made contact I try and position myself to gather information. If it was a sound contact, almost always that's at long range first, which is somewhere around 20 klicks out. I sit at dead stop, at 20 meters, and get a bearing. I get another 10 minutes later, another 10 after that, and a forth 10 after that. That enables me to generate a vector angle. It doesn't help for range, but as it's most likely 20 klicks out to start I have a rough idea. I guesstimate a speed of 9 knots then surface and set a bearing that, based on my speed versus theirs, should start me on an intercept course. Depending on speeds and distances, again guesstimating, I'll resubmerge and gather another set of bearings versus time. Normally this is enough to eventually bring me into visual range (unless it's a 'dark and stormy night'; 400 meter visibility is loads of fun).

Once visual, either by interception via the above, or by 'bumping' into them ("Smoke on the horizon!") or by receiving a contact report and racing that way, I'll again come to dead stop and start taking measurements. Depending on various factors that's either done surfaced or submerged. It's similar to the above, in that I measure a bearing, wait, do it again, wait, then do it again. Without a range measurement all I can do is generate a vector, but that's enough to start me manuevering into position.

Where it gets fun is target identification. You can't accurately measure range unless you've accurately identified the target, as you need to know the mast height to do the computation. Once I've identified the target (hopefully correctly) then I begin adding range measurements to the bearing ones. Together, they permit me to generate their actual course, and not just a general vector. I usually don't worry about speed measurements at that point. Depending on the target class and type (and other factors, like if they are in a convoy, or a singleton) I'll use 5, 7 or 9 knots (based upon past experience with them).

Plotting their course, and measuring distance travelled versus time, versus my distance to travel and my speed, I try to set an approach course that has me in firing position 500 meters away, 70 - 110 AoB and a bearing of 0 +/- 30 degrees, with my speed at 1 knot or less. As they get closer measuring range becomes easier (unless rough weather . . . wheeeee . . . roller coaster!). If I can, once they are roughly perpendicular to my I'll do a speed measurement but, more often than not I override that and simply enter what I think their speed actually is.

I do enjoy playing at that level. Sometimes. But mostly I find having a few 'cheats' makes the game more fun and enjoyable for me.

[Krupp]

S!

With Tonnage War (2.2)-mod that I use, it's not possible to get uber-precise ranges from Gunther. And it's a good thing. So plotting the exact target course is no longer possible. It's even not necessary. Only rough estimate is needed for the "overhaul".

When the target is spotted, I will take a quick look on it's masts and smoke for a course estimate (target type) and turn my boat for full speed "overhaul" maneuver, so that only those mast tops are visible (i.e. try to keep about 90 degree bearing on it, but never go so close that I can see more than mast tops). Using artificial “they-cant-see-me-from-until-that-range" is poor way to play. If you can see the bridge (or look-out of warships) of the target, there is a possibility that they can see you.

This overhauling takes some time, but eventually you are in a position of 0 degree angle-on-bow and that is when I turn my coffin towards the target. Depending from the visibility and distance, I dive to periscope depth and run about 5 knots keeping my attack scope just above the surface.

When the target comes to a distance of 5000 - 4000 meters, I'll start using my scope "sparingly" (see "The U-Boat Commanders Handbook", it's a MUST book to learn lots of things about U-Boat tactics.) and depending from the wave height etc. I slow down to 3-4 knots. Every now and then I dip my scope and check that the target is still coming dead ahead and that nothing else have come around us. Few seconds is enough. I never use 6x magnification when I estimate the range, only for checking target type and nationality. Only smaller magnification. That way I have learned to estimate ranges much better. By now, you propably have identified the target type, and It's time to set torpedoes, damage control and other personnel in your boat to action stations, open tubes etc...

So, hopefully your hydrophone-Gunther has informed you about that target, and it's speed (slow, medium, fast), which you'll need to estimate during the final attack run. You set this manually in your TDC and switch it back to auto.

Then I count the "critical range" for my attack: target speed divided by 4, then multiply the result with 1000 ( ex. 7knots/4= 1,75 -> x 1000 = 1750 meters). When the target is (approximately) in that range, I start the clock and I have about 7 1/2 minutes (always that same time) to maneuver my boat to appropriate position for attack (check how far your boat moves in a minute to estimate the distance to target track, ex. 4 knots = about 120meters/minute). Your hydrophone-operator keeps telling the bearing to target during the maneuver. Before the final turn to 60-90 degree attack angle I should have couple of minutes left to estimate and check targets nationality, speed, range (distance to track), torpedo settings etc.

Just before sending eels away, my boat is running 2-3 knots( I never stop my boat during attacks). Attack takes place well within 1000 meters, usually around 600 meters for lone runners. (Attacking convoys is a whole different thing because of those escorts, multiple target attacking etc.) With this close range, small errors in estimates play a pretty small part. I have about 90% accuracy and aiming certain parts of the target is sometimes quite accurate too. Missing target is up to torpedofailures most of times in TW 2.2. (exellent feature), or my own f-ups in setting TDC.

Then there are dozens small things I try to simulate myself to get that reality level I prefer. Windward/leeward side attacks, sun/moon, possible U-boat traps, surface attack tactics (gun & torpedo) and so on... That way I get good kicks from this sim.

Well, gotta go now...

K

[CptGrayWolf]

Hey, don't feel that just because some players play a certain way that makes it harder, that's the way you should play too.
Personaly I play at something like 85% with WO assitance on and map contacts on.
I simply tell myself that I have a Weapons Officer there to help out and also a Navigator.
Play the way you enjoy it best.

[Dekessey]

where are the limits between the reality (which will never be 100 percent as it is just a simulation) and the pleasure of game? i dont mind the high realism settings but we all know that one man (i mean the player) has to do the job that has been done by 30-40 people during the war... and this is completly unreal.

I play at 54% realism. I play to have fun mostly.
And as you say, there are quite a few competent men on board who are just there to do specific tasks, why not use them! I find taking decisions and giving orders is enough.

[Biggles]

The important thing about a game is that you like it. Play it as you want, and noone will judge you for it.....I hope, since I play at 0%......

[Oldgamer48]

I use about 70% realism, and play at 1x speed. My first patrol started the other day, and I'm about eleven hours out of Kiel, headed for AL36.

However, the captain of a U-Boat did have a crew, with officers and mates, and specialists, and doing everything is just taking it too far, for me. But that's just a personal preference. When approaching a target, I'm not going to get lost in doing paper trigonometry while a DD might be sneaking up on me!

All conflict simulations are a balance between playability and realism, and they have been since the "old days" of Avalon Hill games (which I remember!). SH3 is one of the best mixes of realism, playability, and personal versatility that I've ever had. I can't believe that I let it get by my notice, for so long ...

[AVGWarhawk]

Realism and playability are different things to different folks. Some feel realisim is the only way to obtain playability. Some feel that too much realism ruins playability. I agree with the one post here that running around at 100% is too much work for the commander. I use outside views because, hell, the graphics are great. I use weapons officer assist because that is what he is there for...too dial in the AOB, speed, distance. If he is not assisting I throw him overboard because he is eating food that should be going to the working members of the crew. Other than those two things I run the GW mod. I feel that is about as real as one can get in this game because the crew is to help operate the boat. Anything other than that is just dead weight.

[Dantenoc]

First of all: we al play for fun... That being said, now he question is "what is fun for you?".

You'll find that most of SHIII players were looking for a serious sim when they bought the product. Also, since it's not a "modern sub" sim, most SHIII players where looking for some "old school" action of doing things the "hard way" (within reason). You can read some posts on this forum and get the idea that people want more than just "point and shoot" action. Most SHIII players are smart, and most SHIII players aren't into instant gratification.

Now we get into the tricky part... balancing challenge, realism and playability. Unfourtunately, SHIII has many strong points, but balanced game play isn't one of them. You have several "realism" settings to choose from, but it's either "100% done for you" or "do it yourself 100%". Neither option seems satisfactory to most. Of course, there's no one "realism" setting/mod that will satisfy everybody, but going the "either 100% or 0%" way seems highly unlikely to satisfy but a small portion of players.

Hence all the mods out there. Choose the flavor of your preference.

As a general guideline, I would humbly propose that:
* You should play as challenge to your brain, not as a challenge to your computer or trigger finger.
* Avoid tactics that would be completely impossible in real life (like exploiting the "use your boats electric engine to create energy out of nothing" bug in the game)
* Feel free to come up with tactics that would have worked in real life, even if nobody did it that way in real life. Coming up with better solutions to a problem, within the confines of the "reality" of the sim is a most gratifying experience
* Be flexible from time to time.

As to the Hardcore navigation thing... it's just something some of us are trying to see if it's more fun or not... the jury is still out on that one .

[CptGrayWolf]

Originally Posted by Dietrich

... being about teamwork-and-tactics.

Teamwork and tactics?! Very unrealistic...Silent Hunter III has proven to us that there were no wolfpacks in WWII.

[gord96]

good posts all around. i play at 29% realism. I enjoy the game at that setting right now. I play SH3 for fun. Last thing I want to do after work and training is to work more.lol.