AIP subs leaving our navy in the dust

[sharp]

Our cuts in funding of submarine research and development have severely crippled us in the next gen. sub warfare. As you can see here:
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/10120057/detail.html#


Sweden’s AIP sub Gotland has humiliated our best, although I'm not sure if it has faced Seawolf or Virginia class subs yet. But in theory it doesn't matter because we don't even have more than a few of these and once they become more standard in our navy the next gen of AIP boats (which are already underdevelopment) will be out

[diver]

Originally Posted by sharp

Our cuts in funding of submarine research and development have severly cripled us in the next gen. sub warfare. As you can see here http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/10120057/detail.html#

Swedens AIP sub Gotland has humiliated our best, although I'm not sure if it has faced Seawolf or Virginia class subs yet. But in theory it doesn't matter because no matter we don't even have more than a few of these and onec they become more standard in our navy the next gen of AIP boats (which are already underdevelopment) will be out.

It's nothing new.
Even non-AIP equipped conventionals have been beating your nukes for years. The Collins class has many victories, so do the japs, and the old RAN O-boats.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by diver

It's nothing new.
Even non-AIP equipped conventionals have been beating your nukes for years. The Collins class has many victories, so do the japs, and the old RAN O-boats.

Really? Where can one learn more about that? Do you have sources? I'm not disputing what you claim, just would like to read up on it. I can imagine AIP raises some interesting tactical situations, but how fast can an AIP sub go, and for how long? The old diesel subs in WWII were silent, too, but they had to be in position and hope the enemy crossed their path.

[Kapitan]

I can remember talking to a guy from HMS Tireless after he came back from duty he was exercising with the chilean navy and was against one of thier oberon class submarines, the chilean beat the traffie 3,2 the oberon despite being over 30 years old out did the traffie which was a nuke and alot younger.

All diesels are quiet even on the old tangos and whiskeys and kilos but the conventionals cant go for long periods of excess speed id immagine the AIP submarines are similar but they can go for much longer at faster speeds it wouldnt surprise me that the type 212 / 214 submarines could hit 33 knots at full wack.

Also a further note india retrofitted one of thier kilo class submarines with an experimental 7 blade propellor with that and thier superior indian batteries that said kilo hit 27 knots but the cost in battery life went through the roof after half hourish of flank speed the battery was quite litteraly dead.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Really? Where can one learn more about that? Do you have sources? I'm not disputing what you claim, just would like to read up on it. I can imagine AIP raises some interesting tactical situations, but how fast can an AIP sub go, and for how long? The old diesel subs in WWII were silent, too, but they had to be in position and hope the enemy crossed their path.

Try looking around for an paper by Roger Thompson called "Is the US Navy overrated?" I won't say it is a very good paper, really, there are enough flaws even for a relative layman like me, but it does have examples where this happened. It may still be somewhere on the net and I can fork over a copy if you can't find it.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Also a further note india retrofitted one of thier kilo class submarines with an experimental 7 blade propellor with that and thier superior indian batteries that said kilo hit 27 knots but the cost in battery life went through the roof after half hourish of flank speed the battery was quite litteraly dead.

Sounds like one of those 40-knot carrier sea stories to me. No matter how much charge the "superior" battery can hold, it can only increase endurance rather than top speed, which is regulated by the motor horsepower. Even if I assume the 7 blade propeller (and 636s already use 7-blade propellers while older Kilos use the 6-blade) has somehow doubled the effective thrust into the water (unlikely, since improvements in these things are incremental rather than revolutionary and India doesn't exactly have tons of experience in this whole subject of advanced sub propellers), it is unlikely to buy 7 whole knots.

[Kapitan]

Probably not and i agree with you its more than likely a roumer alot of them float around the indian navy in its attempt to scare pakistan, whats more intresting is though alot of the older indian kilo's have five bladed propellors.

Also i do know the indians have superior batteries as the russians have started to buy them for the lada class, they are far better than the russian ones provided.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Also i do know the indians have superior batteries as the russians have started to buy them for the lada class, they are far better than the russian ones provided.

Of that I have no doubt. India is getting quite technically advanced.

Actually, regarding AIP, few if any AIP systems really generate a lot of power in relation to the main propulsion (diesel and electric) systems. Effectively, for high speeds, the AIP sub is limited by its batteries just as much as an ordinary diesel-electric is. Where the system comes in helpful is providing a silent recharging option w/o need of snorkelling, or a high endurance option at moderate speeds.

Thanks to the way power curves work, even though an AIP typically only produces about 10-20% of the main propulsion's output, that's enough to allow for 1/3rd to 1/2th the maximum speed.

[sharp]

Here are the specs on the Gotland-class subs.
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/gotland_pm00172001.aspx
http://www.kockums.se/Submarines/gotland.html

The endurance claims are not consistent ranging from 2 to 4 weeks. I would it imagine it depends entirely on how active they are during a submerged period.

[sharp]

Here they claim only 2 weeks at 5 knots.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/gotland/

[SmokinTep]

A Sub is only as good as it's crew. I'll put our Subs against any in the world.

[sonar732]

This is from an article three years ago when the Aussies were having wargames off Hawaii.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...222635806.html

Officers in the exercise told The Sunday Age HMAS Sheean had held its own during two rigorous weeks of combat trials with the Los Angeles class attack sub, USS Olympia. The subs had swapped roles as hunter and prey and scored roughly equal numbers of hits.

During its mock attacks on the Olympia and on two US destroyers, the Sheean fired 28 torpedoes. Commander Davies said "a respectable percentage" of shots Sheean fired at Olympia were hits that would have destroyed the powerful US vessel.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by sonar732

This is from an article three years ago when the Aussies were having wargames off Hawaii.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...222635806.html

At the time this was welcome news having there been so much controversy back home over the problems that the Collins class had encountered.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

I can remember talking to a guy from HMS Tireless after he came back from duty he was exercising with the chilean navy and was against one of thier oberon class submarines, the chilean beat the traffie 3,2 the oberon despite being over 30 years old out did the traffie which was a nuke and alot younger.

All diesels are quiet even on the old tangos and whiskeys and kilos but the conventionals cant go for long periods of excess speed id immagine the AIP submarines are similar but they can go for much longer at faster speeds it wouldnt surprise me that the type 212 / 214 submarines could hit 33 knots at full wack.

Also a further note india retrofitted one of thier kilo class submarines with an experimental 7 blade propellor with that and thier superior indian batteries that said kilo hit 27 knots but the cost in battery life went through the roof after half hourish of flank speed the battery was quite litteraly dead.

Listened to the Captain of the 212 on a Discovery chan program - they are claiming 20 knots.

[Kapitan]

Well of corse they will claim 20 knots only a fool will tell you the true truth infact if anyone told you the truth about thier submarines i would seriously think they would be a spy.

Discovery channel claims that the new virginia goes down to 240 meters and has a speed of 25 knots, me and you both know that is one heck of a load of bulls**t as we know the 688i goes down to 400m