This is Interesting

[Frame57]

I was skimming through my latest periodical from the Naval Submarine league and VADM Donnely CSF made this statement. "...The TB-29 is a very capable TA and, when it works, clearly detects contacts that are invisible to other acoustic sensors. But, with a 19% reliability, my CO's have an understanably hard time trusting that it will be there when they need it the most."

This floored me, and I wonder how in the world this TA could have made it to the boats with this kind of poor reliabilty rating. I would have an inbound TLAM heading right to the factory that makes these things.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Frame57

I was skimming through my latest periodical from the Naval Submarine league and VADM Donnely CSF made this statement. "...The TB-29 is a very capable TA and, when it works, clearly detects contacts that are invisible to other acoustic sensors. But, with a 19% reliability, my CO's have an understanably hard time trusting that it will be there when they need it the most."

This floored me, and I wonder how in the world this TA could have made it to the boats with this kind of poor reliabilty rating. I would have an inbound TLAM heading right to the factory that makes these things.

Anything that's exposed to the sea tends to break a lot. Salt causes corrosion of the metal mechanical parts. Also, lots of little sea creatures like to make their homes in things.

[Frame57]

I cannot deny the truth of that SQ. But our ancient TB-16 on Archerfish worked all the time. So I am not buying that for this particular TA. With that much of a poor performance, there has to be an OEM design flaw somewhere.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Frame57

I cannot deny the truth of that SQ. But our ancient TB-16 on Archerfish worked all the time. So I am not buying that for this particular TA. With that much of a poor performance, there has to be an OEM design flaw somewhere.

I don't doubt it. I dunno... my sense of things is that there's two things going on right now:

1) The US Navy is not nearly as skilled as it used to be. It has to do with a lot of things coming to a head. Everything from bad personel policy to budget issues.

2) There's a lot of lesser known problems with various other programs that result from issues similar to those in the LCS program. The LCS program was just the biggest goof up. The policies that led to the goof up were not isolated to the LCS program.

3) American scientists and engineers are not as good as they used to be. The public education system is basically a tragedy. The really sad thing is that we're actually dealing with a generational problem. Things have been so bad for so long that parents don't know what it really means to be educated anymore. So... when the parents are incompetant in science and math, any marginal improvement over them seems great to them, even as kids are falling behind in the big picture. As one who went to private school, sometimes I'm SHOCKED to find out what most public school children consider to be advanced material. Frankly, I don't think American universities should admit American children anymore. They're not capable of the work. Every child should graduate from highschool knowing calculus and linear algebra. That should just be a given. It's impossible right now, though. It's a total pipedream.

So... bottom line in about twenty years the US military is going to look like a European military. They ended up in the hole they were in because of socialism. We're going to end up in the hole we're in because of... Republicanism. It's actually pretty funny when I think about it.

[OneShot]

Just being the old curious me but what hole in particular are the European Navies in your opinion in ? Money (i.e. Equipment) or Personnel ?

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by OneShot

Just being the old curious me but what hole in particular are the European Navies in your opinion in ? Money (i.e. Equipment) or Personnel ?

Most probably money or moreso the cronic lack of money.
European navies are pretty advanced, thank you very much SeaQueen. On the other hand we don't have dreams of imperialism anymore. So the money goes to something more usefull. We have our own historic destiny to achieve, that is if our euro-politicians don't **** everything up in the process.

[jmr]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

American scientists and engineers are not as good as they used to be.

Naw, they just end up working for Google rather than Boeing.

But seriously, I'm not sure I agree with that statement as any accredited engineering or advanced science program is going to have high standards to begin with. I think the main problem lies in the number of scientists and engineers we're cranking out today versus the number we used to produce in prior generations. I think this shortage has more to due with poor math skills of "kids these days" rather than a lack of interest in the sciences. There was a piece that Bill Moyers did not too long ago discussing this topic where those entering college with a desire to go into the sciences end up defaulting to a liberal arts major because they quickly found out that their math skills weren't up to par. And this is not to denigrate the liberal arts in any way because there are individuals who are exceptionally bright and who willingly opt for those programs because that's where their talent and passion lays. Don’t chuckle, but we’ll always have a need for English majors.

It's the ones who major in them out of necessity because it’s the only thing they can major in are perhaps the ones who shouldn't be in college in the first place. But in the US we place an overwhelming emphasis on the almighty bachelor’s degree over the less glamorous technical trades; it's no wonder we have an abundance of college graduates with degrees that are practically useless in the working world. In the corporate world many employers won’t even consider you for hire or promotion unless you have a BA. A bachelor’s in basket weaving is better than no bachelor’s at all, it seems.

The public education system is basically a tragedy.

They’re a train wreck from the ground up, no doubt about it, and the only solution I can conjure up involves nuking them from orbit with the intention of starting all over again. Part of the problem stems from our cultural emphasis on being noisy, boisterous, popular, athletic, good looking, etc., while shunning actual learning. And heaven forbid if you’re a nerd who loves that sort of thing.

Every child should graduate from high school knowing calculus and linear algebra

Heh, a bit extreme don’t you think? I know a couple who hold advanced degrees in engineering that have children that have shown no proclivity for math. Such an extreme mandate really wouldn’t accomplish anything other than to increase the high school dropout rate. Proficiency in the basics is a must but not everyone is wired to be an engineer or scientist when they’re conceived.

[Frame57]

I agree with our public ed being in the toilet. But I have been out of the US Sub Force 1992. I can only hope the standards have not been lowered. I have heard the Boot camps now are easier and the DI's have to be "nice" or some crap like that. Since Rickover is not around I wonder if nuclear power training is as tough as it used to be. They used to have a considerable drop out rate because of the intensity of the training.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Originally Posted by Frame57

I agree with our public ed being in the toilet. But I have been out of the US Sub Force 1992. I can only hope the standards have not been lowered. I have heard the Boot camps now are easier and the DI's have to be "nice" or some crap like that. Since Rickover is not around I wonder if nuclear power training is as tough as it used to be. They used to have a considerable drop out rate because of the intensity of the training.

You got out on '92 as well eh?

I have had the (dis)pleasure of meeting some of the current baby nukes. They scare me. They really do.

Let me remininsce here:

I knew that my brethen had gone thru hell like I did. There was no free rides. There was not 'easy time'. I remember the stress of the final exam in nuke school in Orlando. I about passed out when I saw that I had made it.

When I met other nukes (even the ones that had not be in class with me) I KNEW that they had a basic level of knowledge in order to make it to the fleet.

Remember, the nuke program was a FILTER and not a pump back then. They did not pump out nukes, they filtered them. If you did not make the cut in the acedemics or the STRESS management then you failed. You went to fleet as a normal rate.

I met some baby nukes when I lived in Florida. Pensacola is a BIG navy town and a lot of the kids come home to see their retired parents between schools or on the way to their first commands. I had a job that put me in contact with quite a few of them. I got to 'talk shop' with them on more than a few occasions and noticed that the level of knowledge was dropping rapidly.

Things that I KNEW I had a basic handle on was way outside of their level of knowledge. It seemed to me that the program had gone from one of engineering training then backfilling in the required naval knowledge to one that seemd more reactionary and screen reading.

It was always a trait of a nuke in the old days that they could 'nuke out' anything. If you gave them a tech manual and a basic diagram, they could figure out how it works and what it was supposed to do in the first place. I have NEVER seen a 100K GPD flash type evap (fresh water maker), but I could explain the principles of operation and the underlying physics and thermodynamics that were behind it.

Modern nukes?? They know the basics of how the plants work, but if you ask them the 'nuts and bolt' they look at you with a blank stare. Talk about a dropped rod and how it changes the flux in the core and they say that the book has the answer. Ask them WHY the book tells them that and they just mumble back some BS answer. ANY nuke from my era (late 80's) could talk your EAR off about what happens and WHY. It did not matter what plant you studied, you understood the engineering and science behind it. If you came up against something you had not seen before, you could 'nuke it out' and come out with a good baseline.

This is not something you learn in the fleet. This is knowledge you went to the fleet WITH. This was WHY the fleet in general LOVED 'nuke waste', even 'waste' was pretty damn smart.

I am saddened to say that I started to see them general 'dumbing down' when my old CO became NAVSEA08 I.E. Naval Ractors. Since his tenure, I have seem the program go from a filter to a pump. The goal now seems to be how many nukes they can send to the fleet and who gives a care if they know what is really going on.

Back when I went though the program, my class had a 68% drop rate. That is from the beginning of A school till the end of Prototype. Thats right almost 7 in 10 got dropped. Some for academics, some for drinking, some for stupidity. I remember reading somewhere that in 2007 the drop rate was less than 10% and they wanted it lower. They were saying that 'better screening' and 'better training' were the causes for the lower drop rate.

I'm sorry to say, but, the 'top of his class' (I saw his award certificate btw) baby nuke MM that I met 3 years ago freaking SCARED me. I tried talking pump laws and basic steam cycle with him and he as as dumb as a box of hammers. This is when I started my own informal testing of any and all baby nukes I could find. This is when I found out that they teach more reactionary training. It has become 'if this happens, do the following procedure' type mentality. They do not seem to undertand the HOW and WHY they are doing things. Don't get me wrong, a valve is a valve, a switch is a switch, but they don't seem to have the underlying engineering training that we had. They taught us the HOW and the WHY instead of the 'cause and effect' training that they have now.

I can actually see one thing that this shifting in training will benefit for the navy. Back in my day, we repected officers becausee of their rank. The level of knowledge was not an issue between us. More then once, I have seen one of my brethern tell a officer that the only diffrence between them adn us was rank. We were not afraid to tell an officer that our level of knowledge was the same or BETTER then theirs. There was a respect in BOTH directions.

By dumbing down the enlisted nukes, they are creating a greater difference between the officers and enlisted. Now you will have officers who are truly 'smarter' and more knowledgable than the enlisted. This would have the effect of creating the 'stratification' that the military is looking for. They do not like having enlisted that can stand toe to toe with the officer ranks on the knowledge and education standard. It was difficult in my time when you have an officer who was 2 or 3 years older then you trying to tell you your job. ESPECIALLY when you know he was wrong.

Before you say I am bashing officers, my father was an Naval Aviator and we discussed this many times while we were BOTH active duty. We both discussed how the Navy wanted 'smart and educated' enlisted people as long as they knew their place. It made for many interesting times when he invited me to the O-Club for a drink.

Enough ranting for now.. I have to get back into the grove. I have been out of DW to long.

[Frame57]

Interesting obs BN. You may indeed be right. Everything is so cut and paste these days. My current Boss is a former Nuke Bubblehead and we often chat about this stuff and we are pretty much in agreement too. We work on medical life support equipment now. I had to get my electronics degree after my military career in order to work on medical equipment. we had to learn a lot of theory in electronics and had to be able to troubleshoot down to componant level on PCB's. But today that is pretty much gone in a lot of the electronics programs that are available at the community college level. Now when a board fries, you just replace the board. No more hooking up a DMM or O-scope. Those days are gone, so it seems that the level of knowledge does not have to be there as well. By the way my electronics professor was a Bubblehead too. He served on the diesel boats in the 1950's. He even made us learn tube theory. That guy knew his math every which way and then some. Me, if I do not use I lose it it seems. I have always admired peope who can take stuf like pre-calculus algebra and actually remember it. The Engineer on the A-fish was Tony Watkins and I still think he was the most intelligent human being I ever met. I envied the nukes and we A-ganger worked well with them even though we were called "Coners" once in awhile. But one thing we shared with our shipmates aft of frame 57 was our lack of liberty. I swear if I could do it all over again, I would strike a rate that got liberty as soon as the brow went over. Any one got a time machine handy?

[Dr.Sid]

It's the computers. People can invest their technical talents somewhere else. Also army in general may be less popular.

[goldorak]

While we are on the subject, does anyone know what Explosive Echo Ranging is ?
And if yes, is it still a tactic used nowadays in asw?
A person I play DW with is trying to convince me that EER is a sound tactic to hunt a submarine but I fail to see exactly why.
What can EER achieve that a field of passive/active sonobuoys + p-3 can't achieve ? :hmm:

[Pisces]

Ehm, how much of this topic still has to do with reliability (or lack thereof) of the real-live TB-29?

[Frame57]

It would be great if some ST's could weigh in on the subject. I do not think this would be an issue of the crew's being insufficiently trained. It seems as though the navy bought a piece of dog dooky that works well in theory but has some bugs or inherant design flaws in it.

[Maiale]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

So... bottom line in about twenty years the US military is going to look like a European military. They ended up in the hole they were in because of socialism. We're going to end up in the hole we're in because of... Republicanism. It's actually pretty funny when I think about it.

What is a "European Military"? When will Americans understand that Europe is not set up like the US..? Europe isn't made up of different states but different NATIONS!! Every nation chooses it's own policy whether leaning more towards socialism or not...who more who less. But that's quite funny since Britain has been a democracy since before the US even existed. I don't see how a country like Britain is any more "socialist" than the US, to be honest.

And European militaries do a perfectly fine job...we don't invade countries at a whim like the US so all we really need is a defensive force, which they do a splendid job (when was the last time a European nation was invaded? 60 years?). I see someone has never been to Europe to actually see how it is...not how Tom Clancy thinks it is. I can see how the US got into trouble in Iraq because your way of thinking about the world is completely wrong..I would put down that as more worrying than actually not being able to do algebra and such. Seriously...for someone who harps on about "lack of education" you do display a surprising amount of ignorance my dear Sea Queen. :rotfl:

p.s. Ban me, suspend me I don't care, but I as a European, find such hypocritical and untrue bigotry offensive. Shame on you....and we're supposed to be allies? puh...you make the US sound like imperialist despots.. Yeah...the US is working...right....that's why your economy is down the crapper...right.