China tells U.S. to shut up....

[Yahoshua]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060818/...itain_china_us

[August]

"It's better for the U.S. to shut up," Sha said. "Keep quiet. It's much, much better."

Better for who exactly?

[gabeeg]

Unless there is a diplomatic or cultural miracle, our children (if not ourselves) are going to have a real problem on thier hands. I do not trust the Chinese government, my only hope is that the Chinese people will not allow any government behavior that is bad for business.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Better for everyone, probably.

I positively wince whenever I hear about the US whining about another nation's militarization. It is utterly hypocritical.

"Oh no, they are arming themselves so one day they might actually be able to defend against us or defy our will!"

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

"Oh no, they are arming themselves so one day they might actually be able to defend against us or defy our will!"

Or perhaps China's building a military to subvert a people (Taiwan) against their will under the mainland (China). China still hasn't explained why they need 700 SRBM's pointed across the Taiwan Strait at civilians. Not exactly a defensive posture.

I don't know about you, but lighting East Asia on fire to conquer a defacto free and independant people ain't a happy thought. I hope the USA (Rumsfeld) keeps on em'.

[STEED]

WW3, America Vs China on 20-- AD :hmm:

China is coming up fast as a new super power on the scene.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

I don't know about you, but lighting East Asia on fire to conquer a defacto free and independant people ain't a happy thought. I hope the USA (Rumsfeld) keeps on em'.

With such an extremely bad record of politics in the ME, I would be careful to be the the one saying so. This and a record of stupid wars, fought for wrong reasons and often in wrong ways, in principle is the reason for which I criticise Bush in special and the ME policy of America since a longer while in general: to have destroyed the moral ground from which the US could rightfully pontificate other nations about why they should remain to be militarily "weak" and vulnerable to the US. Not that China is the latter anymore.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by STEED

WW3, America Vs China on 20-- AD :hmm:

China is coming up fast as a new super power on the scene.

Not that fast. The things that will eventually slow China down is the fact that they have huge pollution problems, huge population problems, poor disease control, and a massive piracy problem. Plus their technology modernization for their military is largely based on copying and reverse engineering methods. Hard to truly master technologies like that. Certainly can't build a technological infrastructure based on that. And they've been largely dependant on Russia to get a step ahead. Take a look at most of the programs in China's military modernization. They're mostly based on designs from the 70's and 80's. And these are new things like J-10 (based loosely on Israeli Lavi from 80's). And China still has not produced a viable nuclear submarine of credible design.

I have no doubt they're making gains. But they show no signs of actually catching up anytime soon. Though alot of potential exists for improvement, there is alot of potential for impediments to slow progress. I believe these things will catch up with China within 10 years or so.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

With such an extremely bad record of politics in the ME, I would be careful to be the the one saying so. This and a record of stupid wars, fought for wrong reasons and often in wrong ways, in principle is the reason for which I criticise Bush in special and the ME policy of America since a longer while in general: to have destroyed the moral ground from which the US could rightfully pontificate other nations about why they should remain to be militarily "weak" and vulnerable to the US. Not that China is the latter anymore.

I guess you forgot that Saddam violated every UN resolution, kicked out weapons inspectors, and was paying the families of Palestinian terrorists $10,000 USD for every suicide attack in Israel.

A free and prosperous Taiwan is not a good comparison to Saddam's dictatorship.

[Captain Nemo]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Not that fast. The things that will eventually slow China down is the fact that they have huge pollution problems, huge population problems, poor disease control, and a massive piracy problem. Plus their technology modernization for their military is largely based on copying and reverse engineering methods. Hard to truly master technologies like that. Certainly can't build a technological infrastructure based on that. And they've been largely dependant on Russia to get a step ahead. Take a look at most of the programs in China's military modernization. They're mostly based on designs from the 70's and 80's. And these are new things like J-10 (based loosely on Israeli Lavi from 80's). And China still has not produced a viable nuclear submarine of credible design.

I have no doubt they're making gains. But they show no signs of actually catching up anytime soon. Though alot of potential exists for improvement, there is alot of potential for impediments to slow progress. I believe these things will catch up with China within 10 years or so.

I don't think you should underestimate the Chinese. They might not match the USA militarily but economically they are coming up fast. It wouldn't surprise me if within the next 5-10 years they become a member of the top industrialised nations making the G8 the G9.

With regard to pollution, I think the USA does badly on this front by contributing 33% of the worlds CO2 emissions and the US Federal government seems to be dragging it's feet on combating the problem.

Nemo

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

I don't think you should underestimate the Chinese. They might not match the USA militarily but economically they are coming up fast. It wouldn't surprise me if within the next 5-10 years they become a member of the top industrialised nations making the G8 the G9.

With regard to pollution, I think the USA does badly on this front by contributing 33% of the worlds CO2 emissions and the US Federal government seems to be dragging it's feet on combating the problem.

Nemo

Economically they are making gains. No doubt about it. But when looking objectively about China, you can't help but see that there are alot of things that can or will impede it's growth. Such as it's current banking situation. All I can say is I remember the good old days of the 80's when everybody said the same stuff about Japan and the economic powerhouse they were to become. They were supposed to have eclipsed everybody including the US by now.

I'm not going to get into a "global warming" debate. It usually does nothing but run in circles. But I think you should look at pictures of the sky in Chengdu, Dalian, Xian, Beijing, and Shanghai (commercial district) sometime. Take a look at some of the rivers and how brown they are running through these cities. These cities put Los Angeles to shame pollution wise. It's probably true that the U.S. puts out alot of CO2 emissions, but there are alot of reports that China floats alot of raw sewage and industrial waste into rivers, and out in the ocean, and produces tons of other nasty pollutants that the U.S. doesn't even produce anymore. Where's your outrage at the Chinese?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

I guess you forgot that Saddam violated every UN resolution, kicked out weapons inspectors, and was paying the families of Palestinian terrorists $10,000 USD for every suicide attack in Israel.

Well, that really was not kind, wasn't it? It compares to today's problems with Iraq and future blowbacks caused by the Iraq desaster like a small flie compares to a raging bull. you have solved the problem of saddam - by replacing it with a problem innumerably more threatening, potent, and complex. Not clever.

No one knows if there will ever be a war about Taiwan. We had tens of thousands of weapons aiming at the enemy during the cold war - but no war. Intimidating and bluffing and threatening is part of the game.

BTW, Hezbullah will violate the new resolution, too. Israel has ignored resolutions as well. Neither the Us nor the UN nor the EU nor NATO will enforce the resolution this time. What now? Doing like in Iraq 2003?

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Well, that really was not kind, wasn't it? It compares to today's problems with Iraq and future blowbacks caused by the Iraq desaster like a small flie compares to a raging bull. you have solved the problem of saddam - by replacing it with a problem innumerably more threatening, potent, and complex. Not clever.

No one knows if there will ever be a war about Taiwan. We had tens of thousands of weapons aiming at the enemy during the cold war - but no war. Intimidating and bluffing and threatening is part of the game.

While you sit in your cozy little digs in Germany, there are people on the ground in Iraq that disagree with you. We'll see how the whole thing turns out. I'm not saying it will surely become a glorious success. But unlike you, I hope for success. All I got to say is you have an opinion. And that's OK. But just because you think something cynical, or hope for U.S. disaster, it doesn't make it so.

I don't believe China will ever invade Taiwan. But pointing hundreds of SRBM's at Taiwan doesn't help. The point is, China intends to subvert a government who threatens no one, does not torture it's own people, and does not aid international terrorists financially. The same cannot be said for Saddam and the Baathist in Iraq pre-invasion.

[Skybird]

In past weeks I have linked to at least one long interview with troops in Iraq that disagree WITH YOU, as a matter of fact. and troops call the situation openly civil war, right now, right there. You do not like what it has turned into, thus you ignore it and call this "hope for a better future", and accusing me of hoping for the worst. Different to you, I simply see it without rosy glasses, and realistic. Everyone can see the mess it has turned into, and that it is a completely lost case - if only he wants to see the truth. Clever ones even saw it in advance, three years ago, can one imagine it...

I leave it to that.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

BTW, Hezbullah will violate the new resolution, too. Israel has ignored resolutions as well. Neither the Us nor the UN nor the EU nor NATO will enforce the resolution this time. What now? Doing like in Iraq 2003?

Eventually we're going to say screw world opinion and just finish the job IMHO. The reason we aren't getting the job done fast enough is because we currently worry about world opinion. And that prevents us from putting forth the resources necessary to adequately do it.

It would also help if American Democrats would either get on board, or just shut up and let us get the job done. Thank God these people were not around when the U.S. was embroiled in WW2. They would have had us retreating after suffering the large amount of casualties at Midway, and the Coral Sea. I'm convinced that the Third Reich would have prevailed in the Atlantic if this type of thinking prevented the Allies from doing what was necessary to win.

Oh yeah, and get rid of the UN and their worthless resolutions.