LWAMI4: Helos, Aircraft, and Submarines

[LuftWolf]

Here is perhaps the most controversial aspect of the changes I am currently making for LWAMI4, so I thought I'd run this by you guys while I was doing the work for the next playtest version (with documentation this time).

Here are things to keep in mind: 1) masts cannot be made detectable in DW, period 2) the detection models for both visual and passive sonar do not make any distinction (apparently) between objects being on the same side of the water level or on different sides (so in the air or underwater) aside from the arbitrary hardcaps set in the database

I have reworked the autocrew lookout sensors on the MH60 and P-3 (the permanently enabled lookouts that report visual contacts ahead and slightly to the rear) so they can "see" underwater and detect submarines at slightly deeper than periscope depth and report these contact to the player (the exact depth varies by the height of the submarine, it's generally 70-80ft).

In good weather conditions, the autocrews will detect most submarines around 2nm (this cannot be varied by altitude), with some variability based on submarine size.

The AI lookout sensors for AI platforms and the FFG have been boosted somewhat over previous settings as they were a bit shortsighted before (in my opinion), and because as part of the fix, I had to reduce the detectability of the submarines when on the surface, although the calibration to the AI and the FFG negates this, while still retaining for AI air platforms the same detection parameters on submerged submarines as the MH60 and P-3 lookouts.

However, I had fewer options with the MH60 and P-3, so the mean detectability for the submarines when at PD is the same as when surfaced (for the lookout sensors). This is unavoidable. This choice was either to have submarines be too detectable while underwater or not to have them detectable at all underwater, in other words make no changes.

That's the first caveat. The second is that in bad weather (night, rain) the detectablity drops not to 0, as one would expect if this were modeling strictly a visual sensor, but to about 60% of the distance in good conditions.

NOW, before you all jump at this, I need to explain the logic behind this configuration. First, the sensor is not modelling strictly a one-to-one visual sweep of the crew of the platform trying to view the submarine underwater. Second, you all need to be aware that the AI platforms, when at PD, are considered to be at Comms depth and able to report links and also will have several other sensors available to them (like perscope, ESM, etc.) when at PD in LWAMI4. These will be enabled automatically whenever the submarine is at PD. So in a sense, any submarine at PD is considered by the engine to have all its masts in the air.

In terms of player submarines, there are definately times when one would be at PD and not have a mast raised, however, this is by far the most common reason one would be at PD, or at least to have the option of raising the mast, with currently no additional risk of counterdetection than being anywhere within MAD or acoustic distance. I believe there should be significant risk in being at PD, and so this is one way of addressing both the mast issue and the inability to see submarines underwater.

The 2nm in good weather is not *that much* greater than one would see submarines in optimal conditions (at least according to some sources...) and the 1nm or so the submarines would be detected in bad conditions would strictly represent mast detection or the wake made by the sail/masts.

On the other hand, for the bubbleheads, one consequence of the way I am redoing the missile launch transients to give TIW's is that helos and aircraft will once again be detectable on submarine sonars, and most likely at ranges greater than the ability of the helo or aircraft to be able to detect you at PD (I have yet to work out the details of this aspect of it), so if you get spotted, that's because you didn't check your sonar, or got "overflown by a low-flying multi-engined turboprop." :p

Oh, also, I'm going to add sonobuoy splashes... they'll be quiet and almost impossible to distinguish on russian sonar, but at least they will be there.

I'm open to any and all feedback about these features.

Cheers,
David

[goldorak]

I can only express my appreciation for your work, you're THE MAN LUFTWOLF.
At least now subs won't be "invisible" while being near the surface, this for me as a p-3 or mh-60 player from time to time is really really good news.
It makes playing those units less frustrating.

[Mau]

Looks very exciting!!!!

Continue your outstansing work Luftwolf
Your the best!!!

Mau

[OneShot]

Originally Posted by Luftwolf

On the other hand, for the bubbleheads, one consequence of the way I am redoing the missile launch transients to give TIW's is that helos and aircraft will once again be detectable on submarine sonars, and most likely at ranges greater than the ability of the helo or aircraft to be able to detect you at PD (I have yet to work out the details of this aspect of it), so if you get spotted, that's because you didn't check your sonar, or got "overflown by a low-flying multi-engined turboprop."

My suggestion on that would be :

- Hovering Helos (out to 100ft altitude) are detectable out to say 2nm on normal and/or 3nm on good conditions on sonar (TA).
- All moving Aircraft above 100kts and at a max of 400ft altitude are detectable at a max of 500yds [normal conditions] and/or 1nm [good conditions: seastate 1, no rain ...] on sonar (TA).

If possible the detection should be dependant upon the depth of the submarine, but if thats not possible then I would say the numbers work out ok either way.

I would like to hear the opinion from our actual sonar guys (as far as classification allows) on this.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I like it LW, a lot.

PD

[Phullbrick]

Originally Posted by Mau

Looks very exciting!!!!

Indeed

can't wait more !

one question, does the game engine allow an ohp to radar detect a sub mats/antennas when raised ? (not sure about this)

[OneShot]

Originally Posted by Phullbrick

one question, does the game engine allow an ohp to radar detect a sub mats/antennas when raised ? (not sure about this)

Unfortunatly not, otherwise this wouldnt be a problem. Therefore we have to do with some sort of workaround. All masts are neither detectable by radar nor by visual means (with the exception that you can see the masts on your own platform).

[goldorak]

Edit : The issue (non detectability of masts by surface ships) is not to be considered a bug.
case closed.

[DivingWind]

Sounds great! Keep up the good work!

[Phullbrick]

too bad

I remember I read a couple of days ago that some recent furtive frigates can get radar profils as low as a submarine with all its mats raised, too bad we have this bug here which prevent us from doing like in real. Plus, this is one of the OHP role (asw) which can't be done : I'm sure less submarine would go to surface to fire sam if they knew the OHP could already detect them when they are at PD looking above water before they surface.

[OneShot]

No offense, but technically the non detecting of masts is not a bug. Masts are simply not detectable objects ... at most you can call this an oversight or lack of a feature. If the game would be set up so masts are detectable objects and it doesn't work ... then its a bug. But yes, only SCS can add that well sought after feature.

[LuftWolf]

It is NOT A BUG, there are VERY GOOD REASONS why this is not implimented in DW, and I support SCS 100% in this.

I can make submarines visable to surface ship using the same sensors, and I've been thinking about this carefully. In the end, I have decided not to do it... this sensor modelling is simulating the specialized mast-finding equipment found on many ASW aircraft, not just looking for masts and their wakes and hull of the submarine under the water. Also, of course, aircraft have a much better position (being in the air) to visually detect submarines underwater.

Additionally, the ranges we are talking about here are about 2nm max... any warship that has a hostile submarine within 2nm at PD clearly isn't paying enough attention to notice the masts anyway. :p

So, all in all, I think applying this fix to ASW aircraft only is the proper way to go. We'll see how it works.

Cheers,
David

[goldorak]

Ok, point taken.

[LuftWolf]

Ah, no worries... it's just that "bug" is kind of a loaded, and often misused term.

In my modding work, I only use the term bug when 1) I find something totally unexpected and counter-intuitive (from an engineering standpoint) while I'm in the middle of trying to add/fix a feature that really doesn't need any more complications 2) I run into non-optimal behavior in the software that I can't get around using the tools at my disposal.

So, the lack of the TB-23 on the 688i in the stock game: NOT a bug. The improper ascent of the submarines to PD: definately a bug.

But that's only from my perspective.

Cheers,
David

[XabbaRus]

Luft what are the reasons that SCS didn't implement this? I can't remember. It is strange as I am dead sure that in 688i if you had your periscope up too long you could be picked up on radar after a bit. Fish will need to help me out with this one.

If it is because the radar model is so simple that the masts would show up 100% of the time regardless of conditions then I can see why they didn't do it.

Thing is any navy types here who could give a ball park range that a sharp lookout could see the masts of a sub at say sea state 2-3 with a sub doing 5 knots.

Luft I hope you don't take this the wrong way I appreciate what you are doing regards masts and getting subs detected at periscope depth etc, I just hope it doesn't affect the balance. If I understood correctly AI lookouts will spot a sub at PD as fast as a sub on the surface. I guess things will come out in the wash.

However is this only going to affect visual. I tried mucking around with the P-3s FLIR and allowed it in the dbase to "see" underwater. Didn't work so I guess it is hardcoded.