[Politics] Lebanon Aid Appeals

[scandium]

Given all of the threads on the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict, I think one is deserved to point out the estimated 800,000 regular people like you and me affected by the Israeli bombing. This Guardian article lists and links to the agencies appealing for donations on their behalf:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...828542,00.html

[tycho102]

If the Lebanese start taking responsibility for the actions of Hizbullah and all the other international terror organizations that their government supports (though taxes), then sure. I'd support sending aid to Lebanon.

Don't elect people you are not prepared to accept the consequences for electing. That applies to Putin, Bush, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Genghis Khan, Hitler, Alexander the Great, Caesar, Castro, and Cortez.

[Skybird]

That is acceptable and very much supported by me - once the Hezbollah is driven out of those areas where the aid goes in. And about this their currently cannot be any clearness. International organizations are not hesitent to accept to support fighting factions, if only they could get through to civilians. And this I do not support, for it strengthens and encourages the system of taking whole populations as hostages (very popular in Africa). I do not want even a tenth of aid transport being split up and be received by Hezbollah.

And like Tycho said, once the responsebility question is answered and accpeted by the Lebanese government and it's voters. To some not unimportant degree voters are responsible for those that they elect into office.

Currently I would prefer a corridor of free passage for refugees, but only if that corridor is controlled on the ground by Israeli forces, so that they can search everyone who is leaving, and filter out any Hezbolla men. If that cannot be acchieved or seems to be unacceptable for some, then I am sorry and must refuse such a corridor. The cruel logic of war.

[Ori_b]

The fact is the Lebanese government refused to exercise its sovereignty over south Lebanon in the past years and let a Terrorist organization financed and trained by foreign countries to take over and act like some twisted military defence force at its south broder. And now claims its not Lebanon fault that attacks towards israel, on israeli ground, are conducted from this border. What an absurd situation.

The tragedy is that Lebanon is "held hostage" by Iran and Syria. But Israel cant stand a situation of being attacked and fired upon civilan settlements, no other country would act differently no matter what their leaders say. Hizbulla must be disarmed and the Lebanese army must take its place on the south border.

Mabye because of these refugees other nations will put some pressure on the real EVIL here, who you probably call "freedom fighters" . Lebanon and Israel wont have their peace as long as Lebanon is not the sovereign of all its territory and free from foreign influence.

As i said, its a tragedy, but you are welcome to stay one night in Haifa or Zfat or the other numerous bombarded israeli settelments...if you dare.

[scandium]

You know when I posted this appeal for aid, I wondered what kind of reaction it would get. The optimistic side of me hoped that the Subsim community might contain enough basic humanism within it to recognize that these 800,000 people who are displaced did not ask for this to happen to them, and in fact have seen more than their fair shair of war, destruction, killing, and terrorism. That these people are just people, many of them Christian, pro-American, and pro-democracy. And I'd hoped that, as this is an international community, others might at least contribute links to organizations in their own region accepting donations for this relief effort - if nothing else.

But the cynical side of me also realized, given the nature of the many other threads on this topic, that this thread would just as likely be hijacked by those who not only could care less about the plight of Lebanese refugees, but would go even further by interjecting their political bias into it in an effort to discourage others from contributing.

What you do with your money is your business, and you're entitled to your views on the conflict and their are many other threads for you to air them; but I'd ask that if you're not interested in helping these people that you at least, please, show enough deceny to keep your trolling out of this thread.

[Safe-Keeper]

The Israeli government is way out of line and always has been. They care nothing about international law, Geneva Conventions, innocents, or the safety of aid-workers (in fact, they're deliberately targetting Red Crescent forces trying to aid the Lebanese). They'd have zero right to do what they're doing in Lebanon even if they didn't intentionally target civilian infrastructure, massacre civilians, and fire at Red Crescent ambulances.

The tragedy is that Lebanon is "held hostage" by Iran and Syria. But Israel cant stand a situation of being attacked and fired upon civilan settlements, no other country would act differently no matter what their leaders say. Hizbulla must be disarmed and the Lebanese army must take its place on the south border.

Blah, blah, blah. Same old jargon from all Israel-supporters: "They've got the right to defend themselves, what are they supposed to do, Hezbollah is evil"... I've heard it all before.

And it's all nonsense. Israel is targetting not only roads, bridges, and power plants, but also ambulances, schools, universities, hospitals, banks, and other civilian targets. And you have the balls to say that they're doing the right thing because Hezbollah attacked their civilian settlements? Israel's doing more damage to the innocents in Lebanon than Hezbollah ever could do to Israel.

Over 1/3 of the victims of the Israeli holocaust (no way am I calling this series of terrorist attacks anything else) are children. Is that a good way of fighting terrorism? Is that what you call a just response to having two of your precious fellow landsmen kidnapped? I say poppycock.

"No other nation would do otherwise"? I'd be very, very scared if that was true. See, I think most nations out there have the decency to not run amok and slaughter as many civilians as they can when someone does something to them. "Oh my God, these evil anti-Semittic terrorists killed some of our civilians! Let's slaughter 1000 times more of their innocents! That'll teach 'em!". Israel's a rogue state completely out of control, and I think "certain people" need to realize that terrorism is not a disease - it's a symptom.

There's no way in the Hot Place Israel is doing this to get rid of Hezbollah. Their actions will never end Hezbollah, HAMAS, or any other anti-Israeli organization - it'll just strenghten their resolve.

If the Lebanese start taking responsibility for the actions of Hizbullah and all the other international terror organizations that their government supports (though taxes), then sure. I'd support sending aid to Lebanon.

Excuse me?! Are you saying that they don't deserve aid because they support Hezbollah? That's the most cruel and cynical thing I've heard in a long time. I assume you think it's OK to void the 4th Geneva Convention and slaughter innocents, too, since they voted Hezbollah into office?

They're innocent civilians. They are not valid targets, and they need all the emergency aid they can get. That, of course, also goes for all wounded military personell - be them Israeli, Hezbollah, Neo-Nazi, North Korean, Swedish, Taliban, Nepalese, British, Australian, black, or white. I'm a Red Cross member - try to convince me otherwise (bring it on). Let's say I'm pissed at the US military's handling of Iraq - say, the Bush-authorized abuse at Guantanamo Bay, or the use of cluster bombs over civilian targets. Am I justified in blowing up a school in the United States because the Americans voted for Bush? Am I right in shooting the Red Cross when they arrive on the scene and try to help the victims of the bombings? I mean, they voted for Bush, now they need to take responsibility for it, right?

I guess -and applaud- your answer: F**k no. Then my second question is: Why's it OK when the Israelis do it to Lebanon? Why do you condemn 7/7, 9/11, the Anthrax raids, the Oklahoma Bombing, and the other numerous acts of terrorism against the USA - while at the same time supporting these acts against innocent Lebanese?

Currently I would prefer a corridor of free passage for refugees, but only if that corridor is controlled on the ground by Israeli forces, so that they can search everyone who is leaving, and filter out any Hezbolla men. If that cannot be acchieved or seems to be unacceptable for some, then I am sorry and must refuse such a corridor. The cruel logic of war.

I'm relived even you acknowledge that as cruel. The "logic" part, though, I'm having more trouble understanding.

Israel monitoring a corridor of fleeing Lebanese? When Israel's currently apparently doing all they can to kill as many Lebanese as possible? With all due respect, that'd be like putting lions to guard a goat's pen and telling them it's OK to take whatever goats they deem aggressive. Guess what would happen? The lions would suddenly realize that the whole herd of goats looked like a pack of aggressive killer goats from the Hot Place and kill them all. Likewise with Israel - they'd see a company of 1000 Hezbollah fighters trying to cross the border and turn their machine guns on them.

Have refugees be taken care of by foreign troops who make an effort to follow things like the Geneva Convention.

Safe-Keeper,
PS: Yes, I'm boycotting Israeli goods and full-heartedly supporting the major political parties in my homeland who call for a nation-wide, official boycott of Israeli goods.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by scandium

You know when I posted this appeal for aid, I wondered what kind of reaction it would get. The optimistic side of me hoped that the Subsim community might contain enough basic humanism within it to recognize that these 800,000 people who are displaced did not ask for this to happen to them, and in fact have seen more than their fair shair of war, destruction, killing, and terrorism. That these people are just people, many of them Christian, pro-American, and pro-democracy. And I'd hoped that, as this is an international community, others might at least contribute links to organizations in their own region accepting donations for this relief effort - if nothing else.

But the cynical side of me also realized, given the nature of the many other threads on this topic, that this thread would just as likely be hijacked by those who not only could care less about the plight of Lebanese refugees, but would go even further by interjecting their political bias into it in an effort to discourage others from contributing.

What you do with your money is your business, and you're entitled to your views on the conflict and their are many other threads for you to air them; but I'd ask that if you're not interested in helping these people that you at least, please, show enough deceny to keep your trolling out of this thread.

There is one differenc ebetween you, and many of us. you are willing to accept a instabile, provisoric ceasefire - and letting Hezbollah remain armed and continue with it's terror, without timley limits. Many of us do seek a stable and lasting solutiuon in that way, that a disarmed and driven away Hezbollah is not only a benefit for Israel, but for Lebanon as well. Even the Arab governments are realtively silent about this mess, they also have an interest to limit Iran'S influence in the ME. none of them would shed a tear if hezbollah would get shattered by Israel.

You focus on the immediate moment only. Others look beyond it. I see no worth in a return to the previous status quo - that also saw a constant killing, inly with less spectacular pictures. Let Hezbollah be disarmed and driven away, then I vote for all humanitarian support that you want. But not before the fight is over, for I do not accept any weakening of the Isaraeli effort, any chance for Hezbollah to find rescue, any distracting away fromtnhe goal of this effort. Becasue then -it would all start again sooner or later. You accept an ongoing horror without end. I prefer an end with horror. Am i cynical? Maybe. War always is pure cynism, if compared with any humanitarian ideals, peace, reason. It is all that NOT.

[Skybird]

Safe-Keeper,

since you are very emotional, I cut it short only. If Hezbollah is hiding inside schools and universities, do not complain when these get bombed. If they store rocket launchers and ammos in the cellar of civilian blociks, do not be surprised if these get hit. If ambulances also come to rescue Hezbollah members, do not be surprised that they get bombed as well. Hezbollah may use telephone lines and electricity, so do not be surprised that they get bombed, too. that's what you do in war, you reduce the tools and means available to your enemy, at all costs. You cannot fight him in a different way. Why do you think Hezbollah is infitrating the civilian society so enthusiastically? Because it believes it is untouchable then. It is inhumane, and carefless, and shows not the smallest concern for civilian lifes. Hezbollah effectively uses Lebanese as human shields. You may be willing to give up, because of their gangster methods. Israel, victim of ongoing bombings and terror strikes since years and years, sees it differently.

If a humanitarian escape corridor cannot be controlled on the ground by Israeli forces, so that Hezbollah can evacuate fighters, weapons and ammunitions through it, than that option is a total no-go. You shall not help your enemy in battle to escape, reorganize and attack you again later on. that is the cruel logic of war - killing the enemy, not assisting him.

[Safe-Keeper]

If Hezbollah is hiding inside schools and universities, do not complain when these get bombed.

I'm not surprised at all. It's the kind of Israeli brutality I've come to know and loathe over the years.

As for the partisans hiding in schools and universities: Prove it.

If they store rocket launchers and ammos in the cellar of civilian blociks, do not be surprised if these get hit.

Again: Prove that there were rockets stored in building x.

If ambulances also come to rescue Hezbollah members, do not be surprised that they get bombed as well.

Fair enough that you hate the Hezbollah, but to deny them and civilians medical care is a bit over-the-top, don't you think? If someone's lying there with severe injuries, then they're not exactly combatants. And even if they were, don't the 100 civilians near him deserve medical aid?

You cannot fight him in a different way.

Read up on other conflicts, please. I don't remember the US bombing Red Cross ambulances in Afghanistan, yet we seemed to win that one quite easily. I don't think allowing neutral organizations to provide medical aid to wounded is going to lose anyone a war (and I think someone needs to read up on the Red Cross manifesto).

Why do you think Hezbollah is infitrating the civilian society so enthusiastically? Because it believes it is untouchable then.

Sure. It's not like Israel's showing a complete disregard for civilian life.

It is inhumane, and carefless, and shows not the smallest concern for civilian lifes.

That describes Israel quite well, yes:p.

Hezbollah effectively uses Lebanese as human shields.

No, they just happen to live among them, like nearly all resistance fighters, partisans, and guerilla members, from the Michigan Militia and the US National Guard to the partisans fighting the Nazis in World War II.

Returning home when you're off-duty is not "hiding behind civilians". If the Hezbollah made the basement of a hospital their HQ, that'd be hiding behind civilians. If they have families to return home to after-action, that's not "hiding behind civilians".

You may be willing to give up, because of their gangster methods.

Typical pro-Israeli rhetoric: "Not condoning massacres of civilians=Giving up completely and letting the terrorists do whatever they want". The world's grey, not black-and-white.

Israel, victim of ongoing bombings and terror strikes since years and years, sees it differently.

Israel has zero right whatsoever to complain about terrorism as long as it kills 100 times as many terrorists itself.

As for me being emotional: Well, it's not much better to subscribe to obvious hatred such as yours, either, is it now (your condoning of massacring neutral Red Crescent ambulances convinced me you're nothing but another extremist). If I keep debating with you, I'll end up in tears, and I've got enough problems in life as it is. Happy hating.

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Fair enough that you hate the Hezbollah...

Well, it's not much better to subscribe to obvious hatred such as yours, either, is it now?

Without even trying to take sides, I have to observe that you seem to hate Israel as one-sidedly as you accuse others of hating Hezbollah. I don't see your arguments as any more reasoned that you accuse theirs of being. Is there not the remotest possibility you're wrong?

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Skybird

There is one differenc ebetween you, and many of us. you are willing to accept a instabile, provisoric ceasefire - and letting Hezbollah remain armed and continue with it's terror, without timley limits. Many of us do seek a stable and lasting solutiuon in that way, that a disarmed and driven away Hezbollah is not only a benefit for Israel, but for Lebanon as well. Even the Arab governments are realtively silent about this mess, they also have an interest to limit Iran'S influence in the ME. none of them would shed a tear if hezbollah would get shattered by Israel.

You focus on the immediate moment only. Others look beyond it. I see no worth in a return to the previous status quo - that also saw a constant killing, inly with less spectacular pictures. Let Hezbollah be disarmed and driven away, then I vote for all humanitarian support that you want. But not before the fight is over, for I do not accept any weakening of the Isaraeli effort, any chance for Hezbollah to find rescue, any distracting away fromtnhe goal of this effort. Becasue then -it would all start again sooner or later. You accept an ongoing horror without end. I prefer an end with horror. Am i cynical? Maybe. War always is pure cynism, if compared with any humanitarian ideals, peace, reason. It is all that NOT.

I'm not debating this with you in this thread Skybird, as not only is this debate irrelevant to it, it is completely counter-productive to it. You know, it is all well and good for the usual thread on politics or religion to stray off course, as they always do. But its a little different when a thread like this, which is not about politics or religion but about humanitarian aid, is hijacked from the very first response and every response afterward purely to poison the well with political bias and cynicism.

So if you want this debate, I ask again: if you're not interested in helping these people that you at least, please, show enough deceny to stop trolling this thread and take it instead to any of the many threads here where it really belongs.

[Skybird]

You distort it again. Actually i want to see help being given to Lebanon and the ME. The best help is helping them to get rid of the iranian influence in form of the hezbollah. But help at that grim price you accept for the future: the repeating of today's bitter events, is no help, but short-sighted. So I ask you not to hinder the removing of the real problem for help being given to that region: the existence of an armed Hezbollah. As long she is there, the aid you want to send there, to more or less part will support and feed a terrorist organization, and therefore you help to attack and destroy Israel by that (like all the financial help by the EU for the Palestinians serves the same purpose, if one only thinks it consequently to the logical end). your effort is well-meant, you see babies cry and mothers with sad eyes and say: "Gee,. let get stuff being send to them." that agood ammount of that would be channeled into the logistic network of Hezbollah, you willingly ignore. Your good heart is counter-productive here and thus does more bad than good in the medium and long run. accepting to give help to Hezbollah is active help to keep the current crisis boiling and continuing in the future. And Israelis will die for your help.

So let's keep things in the right order:

a.) first step is to create the preconditions for aid and help, by disamring and neutralizing the influence of Hezbollah in Lebanese politics, and killing all Hezbollah presence in the soutern border region, then

b.) second step is to send all food, medicine, water, and tents and such things to Lebanon. We could even start to stockpile them closeby right now, so that the final shipping time is shorter.

but if you send in help right now then it is the same as if you pay money onto Hezbollah's internation banking account. Unacceptable.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You distort it again. Actually i want to see help being given to Lebanon and the ME. The best help is helping them to get rid of the iranian influence in form of the hezbollah. But help at that grim price you accept for the future: the repeating of today's bitter events, is no help, but short-sighted. So I ask you not to hinder the removing of the real problem for help being given to that region: the existence of an armed Hezbollah. As long she is there, the aid you want to send there, to more or less part will support and feed a terrorist organization, and therefore you help to attack and destroy Israel by that (like all the financial help by the EU for the Palestinians serves the same purpose, if one only thinks it consequently to the logical end). your effort is well-meant, you see babies cry and mothers with sad eyes and say: "Gee,. let get stuff being send to them." that agood ammount of that would be channeled into the logistic network of Hezbollah, you willingly ignore. Your good heart is counter-productive here and thus does more bad than good in the medium and long run. accepting to give help to Hezbollah is active help to keep the current crisis boiling and continuing in the future. And Israelis will die for your help.

So let's keep things in the right order:

a.) first step is to create the preconditions for aid and help, by disamring and neutralizing the influence of Hezbollah in Lebanese politics, and killing all Hezbollah presence in the soutern border region, then

b.) second step is to send all food, medicine, water, and tents and such things to Lebanon. We could even start to stockpile them closeby right now, so that the final shipping time is shorter.

but if you send in help right now then it is the same as if you pay money onto Hezbollah's internation banking account. Unacceptable.

I'm donating this week, pay week for me, to one of those organizations listed in the Guardian article (probably UNICEF) and plan to get a friend of mine and his fiance, who feel as I do about this, to donate as well so that the donation is a little heftier than what I have to spare. If you want to wait it out, by all means, that is your choice. Ultimately we must all, individually, do what we feel is the right thing to do, and I believe this is the right thing to do.

[Skybird]

Then do so. I do not question that your motivation is well-meant.

[bradclark1]

The Lebonese army is out equipped and outnumbered by Hezbollah. They have a snowballs chance in hell of taking them on by themselves and winning. Israel could not handle Hezbolla on their own turf when they fought in the 80's(?). What is the Lebonese goverment supposed to do? They have no control in southern Lebanon.
Having said that, Israel can't be expected to sit there and get continuallly sniped at by Hezbolla and do nothing. Maybe Israel is forcing the issue to get the international community to act in some way?
As far as aid goes, you know Hezbolla is taking their cut of whatever goes in.
If anyone has an idea that's workable I suggest you contact the U.N.