What if

mapuc · 07-04-06, 08:03 PM

What if the operation Market Garden was a success? would the war have ended about christmas-44 or?

The thought came after a program in the History Channel

Markus

Neutrino 123 · 07-05-06, 12:29 AM

Well, exactly what do you mean by "success"? There are all sorts of outcomes that involve the securing of a bridgehead over the Rhine.

A likely scenario is the British using a better zone, allowing them to concentrate the whole division in the Arnhem, perhaps holding out until the XXX corps arrives. The British plan was to drive north to the sea after crossing the Rhine, but by the time the XXX corps reached the Rhine, it had seen heavy fighting. Meanwhile, the Germans had build up signifigant forces. Thus, the bridgehead couldn't be expanded very quickly. Still, the Germans would need to devote more forces to containing the bridgehead, and the British would be in a better position to renew the offensive when the time came. Antwerp wasn't opened until november, and the Bulge would prevent a large British offensive until spring. This is when the British historically captured a Rhine bridgehead, but with one already avalible, their advance would go more smoothly (and other areas too since there would be more Germans opposing the British). This might lead to the war ending a few weeks early.

If the British had been able to complete their entire plan, then much greater success could be acheived, but driving quickly to the coast was probably unrealistic.

07-05-06, 07:16 AM

Nuetrino...what the hell are you talking about?

Operation Market Garden was supposed to end the war by xmas 1944 by pushing armor divisions into Germany and ultimately to Berlin by using the largest para drop ever and capturing key bridges to let the armor across.

My God man...go read up your history!

Oh yes and...

Quote:

What exactly do you mean by "success"?

You know? The opposite of what Market Garden was..which is a complete failure.

Neutrino 123 · 07-06-06, 02:23 AM

Market-Garden was an operation to secure a bridgehead over the Rhine. The PURPOSE of this bridgehead was to eventually get to the Ruhr as soon as possible, but a drive to the Ruhr wasn't technically part of Market-Garden.

After capturing Arnhem, the British were indeed to drive northward to the sea. This would secure their flank for the drive to the Ruhr. It's not as far as one might expect, since the sea juts southward signifigantly in the Netherlands' area.

"Success" is not only one outcome. There can be many degrees of success. To be even more explicit then above, success could mean securing a bridgehead over the Rhine, but having it fairly well-contained, or could mean achieving a complete breakthrough to the coast (with a subsequent drive to the Ruhr).

Also note that I accidently mistyped the first sentance of my second paragraph in my previous post. It should (obviously) read, "A likely scenario is the British using a better drop zone, allowing them to concentrate their whole airborne division at Arnhem, perhaps allowing them to hold out until the XXX corps arrives.

07-04-06, 08:03 PM	#1
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,535 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	What if What if the operation Market Garden was a success? would the war have ended about christmas-44 or? The thought came after a program in the History Channel Markus

07-05-06, 12:29 AM	#2
Neutrino 123 A-ganger Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: UCLA, Los Angeles Posts: 73 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Well, exactly what do you mean by "success"? There are all sorts of outcomes that involve the securing of a bridgehead over the Rhine. A likely scenario is the British using a better zone, allowing them to concentrate the whole division in the Arnhem, perhaps holding out until the XXX corps arrives. The British plan was to drive north to the sea after crossing the Rhine, but by the time the XXX corps reached the Rhine, it had seen heavy fighting. Meanwhile, the Germans had build up signifigant forces. Thus, the bridgehead couldn't be expanded very quickly. Still, the Germans would need to devote more forces to containing the bridgehead, and the British would be in a better position to renew the offensive when the time came. Antwerp wasn't opened until november, and the Bulge would prevent a large British offensive until spring. This is when the British historically captured a Rhine bridgehead, but with one already avalible, their advance would go more smoothly (and other areas too since there would be more Germans opposing the British). This might lead to the war ending a few weeks early. If the British had been able to complete their entire plan, then much greater success could be acheived, but driving quickly to the coast was probably unrealistic. __________________ Neutrino 123

07-06-06, 02:23 AM	#4
Neutrino 123 A-ganger Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: UCLA, Los Angeles Posts: 73 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Market-Garden was an operation to secure a bridgehead over the Rhine. The PURPOSE of this bridgehead was to eventually get to the Ruhr as soon as possible, but a drive to the Ruhr wasn't technically part of Market-Garden. After capturing Arnhem, the British were indeed to drive northward to the sea. This would secure their flank for the drive to the Ruhr. It's not as far as one might expect, since the sea juts southward signifigantly in the Netherlands' area. "Success" is not only one outcome. There can be many degrees of success. To be even more explicit then above, success could mean securing a bridgehead over the Rhine, but having it fairly well-contained, or could mean achieving a complete breakthrough to the coast (with a subsequent drive to the Ruhr). Also note that I accidently mistyped the first sentance of my second paragraph in my previous post. It should (obviously) read, "A likely scenario is the British using a better drop zone, allowing them to concentrate their whole airborne division at Arnhem, perhaps allowing them to hold out until the XXX corps arrives. __________________ Neutrino 123