LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #11: Nuke Speeds

[LuftWolf]

The relative speeds of the playable nukes is beginning to bug me.

I'm fairly certain than the Akula is indeed faster than the 688i, so I'm thinking of reverting the speeds back to something more resembling what they were in SC.

What do you think of this scheme?

688i 33kts
AkulaI/II 35kts
SW 38kts (same as it is now in the mod)

Cheers,
David

[goldorak]

I agree with you on the akula II issue.
Its a more modern sub than the 688(i) and this should reflect at least in top speed.
If its possibile I would go like this : top speed akula I < top speed 688(i) < top speed akula II.

[Amizaur]

688/688i - 32kts
Akula -35kts
Seawolf - 37kts

[Deadeye313]

guys, when not being chased by a torpedo, how fast do you actually go? Is it even worth it?

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Deadeye313

guys, when not being chased by a torpedo, how fast do you actually go? Is it even worth it?

Its about realism. :p
I can't stand that in the game the russians subs are inferior even to the 688(i).
Its okay for sonar equipment because we know that american subs were really superior to russian ones in this sector.
But as far as top speed is concerned well no.
The akula II was designed after the 688(i) and is improved over the american sub.
Some sources (Cold War Submarines written by Polmar) even have charts that show that modern akula II class submarines were at least as quiet as the 688i and I don't think this is modelled in the game (vanilla or lwami mod).

[FERdeBOER]

As the russians can't match the american technology, specially on sonar, they allways built submarines faster, stronger, and capable of going deeper than their american counterparts.

guys, when not being chased by a torpedo, how fast do you actually go? Is it even worth it?

2 more knots on some situations are VITAL.

[LoBlo]

I'ld like to see some actual sources and/or technical discussion supporting those proposed speeds.

All the sources I've read suggest that the Akula's speed currently is the one that's over estimated. A 35 knots top speed for the Akula are usually amongst the high end of speed estimates that I've come across with the low end estimates at 28 knots submerged. Also considering the fact that its displacement is estimated in the 10kton to 12kton range and its hydrodynamic shaping deviates more from the ideal with an oval rather than spherical cross section and its placement of its sail structure in closer proximetry to the aft tapering of the hull (increasing the drag effect of the sail for reasons beyond the scope of the discussion).

Overall I think 35 knots for the Akula is actually a bit generous, but anyhow there's no real point of fiddling speeds that are purely guestimates with other speeds that are also purely guestimates, might as well leave as is unless their's some unusually convincing source that supporting something else. However, if a speed is to be toned down seems like the Akula's top speed would be the more logical choice to modify.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Overall I think 35 knots for the Akula is actually a bit generous, but anyhow there's no real point of fiddling speeds that are purely guestimates with other speeds that are also purely guestimates, might as well leave as is unless their's some unusually convincing source that supporting something else. However, if a speed is to be toned down seems like the Akula's top speed would be the more logical choice to modify.

Well no, I don't find it right to have the Akula to be inferior in every sense to the 688(i) when its clear the the sub was on a technological level between the 688i and the seawolf.
The akula is not the equivalent of the 688i as it is not the equivalent of the seawolf but is a way in between. And this is not considered in the game.

As far as proofs go : give a proof that the seawolf top speed is 37 knots, or that its sonar capabilities are those described in the database ?

I hate seeing as there is always a prejudice of the russian war machine, as everything they did was in every way inferior to western technology.
Well guess what ?
It isn't like that.
Did you know that the russians had devised a rocket engine in the late 1960's that would be unmatched in its performace for ever 30 years with respect to any kind of rocket engine the west had engineered. ?
Tough to believe eh ? Yeah, american aerospace engineers had the same nightmare, but in the end they recognised the russian superiority insofar as to use the russian project underlicense for american rockets (to send satellites into space).

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Well no, I don't find it right to have the Akula to be inferior in every sense to the 688(i) when its clear the the sub was on a technological level between the 688i and the seawolf.
The akula is not the equivalent of the 688i as it is not the equivalent of the seawolf but is a way in between.

And your basing this on what?
And note the Akula is not "inferior in every sense" to the 688i. It has more firepower, better weapons with a ton more variety to choose from, deeper diving depth, and the AkulaII is thought to be quieter (at least at slow speeds) Making the Akula faster to the 688i would actually make the Akula superior to the 688i at every level except sonar. What are you talking about...

As far as proofs go : give a proof that the seawolf top speed is 37 knots, or that its sonar capabilities are those described in the database ?

exactly...give "proof" that the Akula's speed is faster or the LA's speed is slower . On a side note, who asked for *proof*? No one. Supporting reasoning and evidence are another thing from "proof".

I hate seeing as there is always a prejudice of the russian war machine, as everything they did was in every way inferior to western technology.
Well guess what ?
It isn't like that.

Some things the russians built better, some things the americans built better.

[goldorak]

Well lets put it this way, everything concerning submarine specs is classified.
Give me an example of declassified document describing submarine sonar, speed etc.. performance.

Short of having hard facts, we should concentrate on the relative performance between the different units in the game.
Now given that the seawolf is the latest and most costly submarine ever to be designed we can "assume" that its sonar performance will be better than the akula II and 688i.
I said better but we don't know how "much" better it is. No one knows outside of submariners etc.... and they surely aren't giving the information out.
So its all speculation, for american and soviets subs.

Some books give rough estimates for top speed of the different subs, but as always its just a guess.
No hard fact. So either we go with route that the "american" technology is always superior to soviet technology and we make the units reflect this in all aspects or we take a more gradual approach consisting of published info and we recognise that soviet technology wasn't always inferior to american technology and take that into account in the game.

Try reading "Cold War Submarines" just to see how much the american establishment underestimated soviet naval technology.
True the soviets were playing catch up on the sonar level, but they had devised other methods for tracking american submarines which arent' even modelled in the game.
Methods which the americans didn't even considered researching during the cold war.

As to the weapons issue, its not my fault that americans only rely on torpedos as the weapon of choice for submarines.
Is that a good thing or bad thing ? It has nothing to do with technology.
Guess that the soviets are just more fancy when it comes to weapons design.

[FERdeBOER]

Put here real proofs about that and in 5 minutes a group of strange men with dark suit and dark glasses will knock your door and... hehehe

First, the speed different we're talking here is 2 knots, nothing excesive.

I don't think the Akula design is so bad as you say. Is similar to Victor and Alfa designs, so, if a design remains for those amount of years would be for a reason... :hmm:
And the Soviets first and Russians now are very good on that things. Take a look at their Migs29 and SU27... they have better aerodynamic than the western fighters.
Yes I know water is not air, I study marine science so I know a little about that.

The propulsion is also important, not only the shape.

And the most data of Russian ships and subs is from the western intelligence so... what they do? the listen as close as they can the Russian maneouvers, but, who can be sure if that submarine is going at the top speed or could still accelerate a bit more?
Figure that still is unknown the max speed and diving depth of the Alfa... and in this case the differences are great: 35 or 45 nkots? 400m or 900m?

[timmyg00]

What are the current maximum speeds?

TG

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Honestly, no reason to change it. No expert on hydrodynamic here, but both have about a 5HP/ton power/weight ratio (assuming 9500t and 47000HP for the Akula), so their speeds should be broadly comparable. Two knots more or less in one direction is just un-necessary.

If you want to improve the Akula, give us sensitivity or washout speed improvement. The game interface does a good enough job of modeling Russian sonar inferiority that you don't need a Nrd differential anyway... if it really is a SSAZ on the real Russian subs, whoever chose to keep it that way should be shot

Or change the SS-N-27's airdropped torp back up to 55.

Or reduce the 688I's diving depth to 300m, since some sources suggest its dive depth is reduced to cram in the speed and reactor. With the Advanced Torp Mod, it has the effect of not allowing it to use depth to slow the approaching torp - in torp evasion, relative speed is important.

[Henson]

Speeds? Sorry, can't tell you.

The reason russian submarines were faster has to do with reactor designs (water vice metal coolant). The american designs focused more on reliability, safety, and control while the russians focused on greater volume of more powerful steam. It was a different philosophy. I do not know if the russians ever switched to a water-cooled design. If they did I imagine their limitations would closely match an I-boat's. Even 688's of the same class will have different speeds though, due to 'dirty' hulls and different screws.

688's can go pretty fast. Seawolf can go ungodly fast. Akula? I have no idea.

The real question is how fast can certain platforms operate with good sonar performance and effecive quieting? Seawolf wins that war handily.

[Molon Labe]

688I: 32 kts (turn down)
Akula I: 32-33 knots (leave it)
Akula II: 35 knots (leave it)