The cartoon row is back...!?!?

[Skybird]

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/839

No comment needed.

[Polak]

I will comment this, in Polish...
Swiat leci na pysk.
(The world is falling on its face)

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Skybird

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/839

No comment needed.

Deeply thoughtful analysis.

[Skybird]

What kind of analysis could be needed here? the stories being told (UN logo, even more so: Burger King) speak for themselves - and pretty loud so.

[Konovalov]

How many Muslims were up in arms about these stories? 100, 1000, a million? I didn't see mass demonstrations. These stories date back 6 to 11 years ago. The only person who brought this cartoon row back as you titled your topic is you.

[Skybird]

Obviously the protest and/or boycotts had been massive enough that huge corporations saw the need to invest substantial sums in dealing with the fallout.

Today's Western public is more sensible on these issues, that's why we take more note of such events today.

In Amsterdam (or Rotterdam) they are raising a huge mosque. For the construction works, a christian cross of a church on the other side of the site had to be removed, temporarily. The church is there, and was there. Some days ago there was a comment on radio, saying that first Muslim voices are to heared that demand that not only the huge crucifix should not be errected again in it's old position after the construction works are done, because it would be offensive to do so, no - some seem even to say that the chrurch should de dissappear now, too.

You see, the stories around symbols will not end that soon in the future.

BTW, I am wondering, how archaic and primitive must an ideolgy be in order to be offended by profane things like this? Neither christianity nor Judaism nor Buddhism nor hinduism nor humanism nor communism nor socialism, nor you-name-it would cook up so easily because Nike designs a logo that by accident share some vague similiarity with one word from it's scriptures. Even Jews are said to buy paper with suqares, although the swastike is to be seen in the pattern. Some of these guys really are in need to learn to control their temper.

But the Islamic symbol in the UN logo is still there.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Obviously the protest and/or boycotts had been massive enough that huge corporations saw the need to invest substantial sums in dealing with the fallout.

Evidence please of such "massive enough" protests/boycotts? I thought it would have been obvious enough to back up your assertion with evidence.

Originally Posted by Skybird

In Amsterdam (or Rotterdam) they are raising a huge mosque. For the construction works, a christian cross of a church on the other side of the site had to be removed, temporarily. The church is there, and was there. Some days ago there was a comment on radio, saying that first Muslim voices are to heared that demand that not only the huge crucifix should not be errected again in it's old position after the construction works are done, because it would be offensive to do so, no - some seem even to say that the chrurch should de dissappear now, too.

Please provide evidence of where in the Holy Qu'ran that it explicitly supports such a silly argument of the cross should not be put back up and is offensive because a Masjid is right next door?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Konovalov

Evidence please of such "massive enough" protests/boycotts? I thought it would have been obvious enough to back up your assertion with evidence.

Ask the marketing directors of the affected companies. If they had to withdraw designs for products, have to call back several hundred thousand units of a finished product, and have to change logos in product designs, messing up a complete marketing campaign, then all this costs money in the range of several million dollars. For example in case of the 800.000 Nike shoes, let's assume a price of 100 bucks per piece (there are sport shoes that cost twice as much), results in 80 million dollars loss - just for the shoes themselves. Transportation, marketing, new design costs even not calculated. Image loss, time delays even not considered. I'm sure they wasted all that money all for nothing, becasue they were bored. How could one assume there was pressure or protest…

Please provide evidence of where in the Holy Qu'ran that it explicitly supports such a silly argument of the cross should not be put back up and is offensive because a Masjid is right next door?

Who cares if the Quran has to say anything about such a specific details?that is not the deciding thing. You are trying to distract attention, by limiting the focus to that of a microscope. And anyway, chances are you would find a comment on such a special detail not in the Quran, but the Hadith. The important thing is that the Quran teaches the overcoming of non-Islamic culture, in many text passages explicitly and beyond doubt demands the submission of non-Islamic people and cultures, and authorizes the use of violence in case of resistance to Islam, of apostasy. If Islam (or Quran) really is so tolerant:

1. why not only this demand by speakers of Muslim communities that the cross keeps away after construction,
2. but also no substantial, forceful attempt of the Muslim community to prevent those Muslims claiming that demand in the name of Islam from doing so??? Too busy with springtime’s homework?

Truth is: if these communities do not care to do something about this, then it is because they do not see a provocation taking place that needs them to defend “true Islam� against those who “abuse� it. It also means that they do not really care for the Christian community that hosts them. Whi9ch is only logically, since chriszians and Jews are dhimmis only, anyway.

3. If there are so many Muslims sharing your mindset, why do they care so little to make themselves heared and make sure their opinion is what determines and forms the shape of Islam? Why allow them a minority to speak for them? I see little ncouragement in the Quran to do so, that’S why it is that way.


I also must remind you of the ongoing systematical hindering, repressalias and pressurizing of foreign religions inside Muslim countries. I repeatedly wrote about this.

Show me/us, that the clear majority of Muslim communities is that caring for their Western hosts and are as reasonable as you try to give an impression you are. Then I am willing to rethink my position towards Islam, but wouldn’t consider it to be Islam as it is defined by Quran, Hadith, Muhammad. I judge it not on the basis of what it says, and claims to be, and wishes it would be, but what effects it causes in the reality I live in, and the history I can read books about. As long as this change in behaviour of communities does not happen, I stick to my opinion of it: that it is a selfish, hostile conqueror, being fixated to exclusively Islamic understandings of terms like value, morale, and belief, and with no concept of a tolerance that reaches beyond “Islamic rule and dominance�.

[Konovalov]

All of that and you couldn't provide simple direct answers to either question. Again please point me to the passages, any passage, be it in the Qu'ran or amongst the Hadiths which support this wacky argument that says a cross is offensive because it is alongside a Mosque and must be torn down. Don't change the topic with all this long winded stuff. Wishy washy wishy washy. So again where is the evidence to back up your claims?

[TteFAboB]

Those that make war against Allah and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be slain or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter." (Sura 5.33-34)

From the words of Saudi Prince, Islam is being attacked, "they" are trying to empty Islam of its meaning. Cutting off a cross seems to suit fine a moderate's non-silly Muslim demand. More on the matter of cutting things off, like a mere cross:

"Allah revealed His will to the angels, saying: 'I shall be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!' That was because they defied Allah and His apostle. He that defies Allah and his apostle shall be sternly punished by Allah." (Sura 8.12-13)

And when there's a Mosque involved:

[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers."

"Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them who are unknown to you but known to Allah." (Sura 8.60)

No need to be under attack either, they can take the initiative:

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal harshly with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." (Sura 9.73)

They can't put the cross back because the expertise lies in destruction only:

"When We resolve to raze a city, We first give warning to those of its people who live in comfort. If they persist in sin, judgement is irrevocably passed, and We destroy it utterly." (Sura 17.16-17)

"We have destroyed many a sinful nation and replaced them by other men. And when they felt Our Might they took to their heels and fled. They were told: 'Do not run away. Return to your comforts and to your dwellings. You shall be questioned all.' 'Woe betide us, we have done wrong' was their reply. And this they kept repeating until We mowed them down and put out their light." (Sura 21.11-15)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad, chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Sura 47.4)

"Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Sura 48.29)

Perfect material to brainwash moderate non-silly people into demanding crosses to be taken down, in the least.

Mr. Konovalov, do you have any evidence the Immans from the boycotters and the anti-cross crowd are peace-loving people, who preach peace, and not the above, and if not simply ignoring the above, preaches against it or the contrary to it?

I believe it is more likely for organized actions, such as a crowd banding together against raising a cross, to be motivated and driven not by a lovely Imman, but by the contrary. There were cases of Immans being replaced/arrested/deported for inciting hatred and violence, do you know the Imman of these people? When was the last time he impressed you with his talk about how these verses are all mistakenly interpreted?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Konovalov

All of that and you couldn't provide simple direct answers to either question. Again please point me to the passages, any passage, be it in the Qu'ran or amongst the Hadiths which support this wacky argument that says a cross is offensive because it is alongside a Mosque and must be torn down. Don't change the topic with all this long winded stuff. Wishy washy wishy washy. So again where is the evidence to back up your claims?

I don't know, and I don't care. That Islamic communities do nothing substantial to prevent this demand is the only deciding thing there is, Konovalov. Tell me, where is the sura that explicitly says that if there ever will be a mosque errected and facing a church, after construction is done any removed christian symbols are no object for demanding they should be kept away? and assuming there would be such a sura (I'm sure there isn't) - what does this change in the bahvior of the majority of the Muslim community in that place?

Again, you are distracting attention away from the important thing - that Muslim communities do nothing substantial to prevent their Muslim speakers demanding that the cross should stay away, and the church eventually should go, too.

Are you the only true interpret of Islam, Konovalov? If you are, explain this too us: why do these communities not draw conseqeunces from your true understanding of Islam, if that true understanding is so much widespread and common good in these communities, as you seem to imply?

It seems they do not care for your view that Islam should not demand the cross being kept away.

This behavior is the issue - not if and where and what the Quran has to say on such a highly specific detail from practiocal life (again, chances are that a comment on this would be found in the hadith, not in the quran). Maybe the quran is of interst for you. It certainly is not for us.

Speak by deeds, dear Muslim communties in our middle, not by words. Words are cheap. They can lead wrong.

[STEED]

BORING

[Konovalov]

More cut and paste hack job Bobafett. It would really help if you quoted larger sections such as the preceeding ayah and one after perhaps with an overview of that particular Surah.

In any case I can't see in any of the verses quoted by you, anything that supports the idea that a church next to a mosque with a cross is offensive and should be pulled down.

[Konovalov]

Oh, so now we change the topic to where is the outrage in the Muslim community yada yada yada. Yes you are right Steed. Bloody boring.

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by Konovalov

More cut and paste hack job Bobafett. It would really help if you quoted larger sections such as the preceeding ayah and one after perhaps with an overview of that particular Surah.

In any case I can't see in any of the verses quoted by you, anything that supports the idea that a church next to a mosque with a cross is offensive and should be pulled down.

I was expecting you to assist me, show some solidarity towards my cut and paste infidel hack job, clear my mind and remember me why none of that, or even better cut and pasted jobs could not convince a bunch of folks to keep a simple cross down. I wonder why it is illegal, in Saudi Arabia for instance, to raise a Church, a Cross and spread Bibles. Certainly, there's nothing offensive in a Cross itself, the problem must be something else, hmm, I wonder what that could be.

But, you are probably too busy already working towards your Imman-man-ship and reverting brainwashed Muslim Youth to the true Islam to bother talking to an infidel about Islam. I understand, it is repulsive to see the Koran cut and pasted by my dirty hands. Sorry, next time I'll find myself a Muslim mediator, and speak only what you want to hear, from my proper condition of a future dhimmi, I submit, this post, that is.