Landlubber saying "ahoy!"

03-25-06, 08:55 PM

Hi!

I've moved up from SH3 to DW. Though admitedly I never got past the Type IIA in SH3. I just love that boat to bits...so cosy.

Anyway...DW is very hard. The thing that sets it out from SH3 is that you can't really train on it's various platforms or get to know them much as your thrown in the thick of things from the beginning. I've pretty much got to know how to use the MH60. But the TMA is proving a tough propsition on other platforms.

Could someone answer me what "bearing" is exactly? In SH3 the bearing given would be relative to your course, I believe? So if I was on a heading of 180 and the contact was at 180, it would be deirectly behind me (north), yes? In Dw if I have a heading of 180 and the contact is at 180, it would be in front of me (south)? Is that correct? The bearing in DW is relative to magnetic north?

Damn hard learning navy stuff....

MaHuJa · 03-25-06, 10:06 PM

Did you choose your name based on your nationality?

Anyway, bearing... there are two types of bearings, there are the Absolute bearings, which is which direction on the map the target is in (0 is north, but I believe magnetic north varies a bit), and there is the relative bearing, which is relative to your course. The places where you have binoculars available, said binocs will provide relative bearings, but other than that, DW operates with absolute bearings.

You can make your own training missions, or use some that others have made, if you need to.

TMA is a hard thing to learn. It's why one usually leaves it to the autocrew until one has learned the rest of the stations. Many never learn to do it manually at all. One tip I can give you right now is that it's a gigo process - garbage in, garbage out. Without proper data you won't get it correct except by sheer luck.

If you have more questions, feel free to ask. If you want tutoring missions for some platform, also feel free to ask.
http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/jo...howjournal&j=4

SeaQueen · 03-25-06, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurushio

But the TMA is proving a tough propsition on other platforms.

TMA is where a lot of the nuance of ASW lies. It's actually not hard to get a pretty good estimate of a target's location once you have a good estimate of the target's speed, but unless you have DEMON on him in the game, you have to make some judgements. I think that's important, though, because you can get a feel for the uncertainty on your estimate of the target's position. That's frequently as valuable as a perfect firing solution. If you can say he's vaguely someplace, then as long as the area of uncertainty isn't huge, you might decide that's worth shooting at all by itself.

There's also some fact that are useful. For example, if a target's bearing is constant then it's either on a collision course or parallel to you.

Quote:

Could someone answer me what "bearing" is exactly? In SH3 the bearing given would be relative to your course, I believe? So if I was on a heading of 180 and the contact was at 180, it would be deirectly behind me (north), yes? In Dw if I have a heading of 180 and the contact is at 180, it would be in front of me (south)? Is that correct? The bearing in DW is relative to magnetic north?

In SH3 I suspect they use what is called the "relative" bearing of a target. The angle is measured from your bow.

In DW they use "true" bearing, relative to North, except on the FFG bridge lookouts and binocular views. In that case they use relative bearings.

Quote:

Damn hard learning navy stuff....

Yeah... it can seem very abstract in the beginning, and it is! It really emphasizes the sorts of calculated gambles in the face of uncertainty that one must make in naval warfare, and the techniques one can use to limit one's uncertainty. DW is fun because it really emphasizes a lot of the "nuts and bolts" kinds of skills of naval warfare, like TMA.

Bellman · 03-26-06, 03:05 AM

Kurushio as MaHuJa said some excellent players have never learnt/mastered manual TMA.

Coming fresh to DW I would address manual sonar first taking the Kilo which simplifies the process as
the absence of a TA removes the complication of sorting-out ghost contacts. Learn all the stations and practice
with Quick Missions. Move on to the 688 (some say Akula next) to get used to the waterfall then on to
the Ak where now familiar with the circular sonar and 'ghosts' you can now make better progress.
Finaly take the SW where the WAA is a benefit but the fiddly inter- phase takes some getting used to.

The QMs are a superb way of practicing and I would stay there initialy - its like a golf driving range -
get into your swing before you cut out on to the course.

03-26-06, 10:41 AM

Mahuja....no I'm not Japanese. I chose the name cos it's in the book I'm reading at the moment; Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honour". It's one of the Japanese subs in the book, means "Black Tide" apparently...nice name for a sub INMHO.

Thanks for the clearup with the bearing issue...can't believe I went so long without ever reading that anywhere. SH3 would've made a lot more sense if I'd known before.

Hi SeaQueen

....yeah I'll stick to TMA but rereading the sectiion in the manual last night gave me a migraine...

I was beginning to sort of get the gist when I came to the part that says"Contacts marked in Active Sonar, Radar and Stadimeter appear as a bearing/range pair on the TMA board." What?

Bellman, I am in fact trying to master the Kilo because logical thinking would make it closest to a WW2 sub of which I am a bit used too, the Kilo being diesel and all. Though I found it's like going from a horse-and-cart to the latest Mercedes Benz car.

Molon Labe · 03-26-06, 10:46 AM

[quote="Kurushio"]Mahuja....no I'm not Japanese. I chose the name cos it's in the book I'm reading at the moment; Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honour". It's one of the Japanese subs in the book, means "Black Tide" apparently...nice name for a sub INMHO.

Thanks for the clearup with the bearing issue...can't believe I went so long without ever reading that anywhere. SH3 would've made a lot more sense if I'd known before.

Hi SeaQueen

....yeah I'll stick to TMA but rereading the sectiion in the manual last night gave me a migraine...

I was beginning to sort of get the gist when I came to the part that says"Contacts marked in Active Sonar, Radar and Stadimeter appear as a bearing/range pair on the TMA board." What?

The bearing lines for these contacts will be shorter than normal, and have a little "flag" on the end indicating range.

goldorak · 03-26-06, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurushio

I was beginning to sort of get the gist when I came to the part that says"Contacts marked in Active Sonar, Radar and Stadimeter appear as a bearing/range pair on the TMA board." What?

Can I give you a piece of advice ?
Read the TMA section of the document titled : Sub Command HQ - Multiplayer Tactical Employment Manual, written by TimmyG00.
You can find it at www.subguru.com and even though it was written for sub command the TMA section applies 100% also to dangerous waters.
Its is very clear, and very easy to understand.

As for the bearing/range pair.
Every time you mark a contact on passive sonar, it will be displayed on the navmap (tma station) at exactly 10nm for the sub irrespective of the contacts real distance.
On the other hand contacts marked from within radar and stadimeter will appear at the excat distance from you on the bearing line.
So in this case instead of having only bearing information you will have also distance hence the bearing/distance pair.

suBB · 03-26-06, 11:13 AM

@ Kurushio

I think its good going manual as i hear a majority favors autoTMA.. MHO, which ruins the experience altogether.. id rather miss the dive than autoTMA...

For me, manual TMA is an entirely new playing experience, development of skills, deeper appreciation of the sim, more realistic, a pain in the @ss sometimes.. and in some cases sheer tactics...

I'd encourage/support anyone who chooses manual TMA...

Since 688i(1997) i been doing manual TMA and dont think that will change anytime soon..

but as a bit of advice thats helped me over the years for anyone going manual and im not kidding.

advice: it doesnt have to be wrong and it doesnt have to be right.. it just has to make sense....

...its one of those aspects of the game you have to get a feel for.. timmyGoos' doc is a good starting point.. but it really just boils down to application, your perferred method which comes in time, gameplay experience, practice..

just hang in there man

good luck w manual tma

MaHuJa · 03-26-06, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurushio

"Contacts marked in Active Sonar, Radar and Stadimeter appear as a bearing/range pair on the TMA board." What?

While the passive sensors give only a bearing, which is represented by a long line, the active sensors give you a range too. This is signified on the tma board by the line ending in a small triangle (I think) at that range.

Clumsy wording, I agree...

suBB · 03-26-06, 11:58 AM

@ Molon labe

veerrrryyy niiiicccee (cylon evolution)

so... where can i get a bumper sticker?!?!? hahahaha

what an incredible show that is... cant wait for next season

SeaQueen · 03-26-06, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurushio

Hi SeaQueen

....yeah I'll stick to TMA but rereading the sectiion in the manual last night gave me a migraine...

I was beginning to sort of get the gist when I came to the part that says"Contacts marked in Active Sonar, Radar and Stadimeter appear as a bearing/range pair on the TMA board." What?

Really, I didn't like the manual's section on TMA. I thought it wasn't particularly well presented. I know some of the people here put together a TMA guide. I haven't read it, but a lot of them swear by it.

I learned TMA by screwing around with a piece of software the Navy put together for training sonar techs.

While you're learning, just use autoTMA. You will loose a feel for the uncertainty involved in ASW, because the AutoTMA makes it possible to overlook some things. A lot of people think it has access to "ground truth" as well. I'm not totally certain that it did, but at the minimum it does calculations faster and more accurately than most people do.

There's a body of mathematics for bearings only TMA that I suspect was built into the sim, so they could model it with the AI.

Anyhow... I hope this proves to be useful.

03-26-06, 02:22 PM

Thanks for all the info guys....very useful. Yeah I've always started at the deep end with simulator games. I play everything manual, same with SH3 where I started with 100 per cent realism. Games last longer that way :P

Wildcat · 04-18-06, 10:46 PM

I personally found it to be a great help when I transitioned from SH2, I was used to manually plotting ship courses from periscope readings. I actually had sheets of paper, a protractor and pencil and would mark down the periscope readings every 2 minutes to get a solution on a long shot, i.e. 3km or more.

You will find that it's very much similar in Sub Command or Dangerous Waters.

DW makes it very easy in fact, because you get a 'stack the dots' line that is not available in real life or in SH2/3. Basically you just have to play around with the arrow at the end of the line.. Stretch it out or move it to any direction on the compass.. Try doing that and alternating between show truth on and off. Check to see the positioning between your solution and the show truth map.

Another good indicator for manual TMA is to watch the bearing of a contact on your sensors. If it's a sonar contact, watch to see if your contact is sliding off to the north or south. Make occasional 20-30 degree turns to make it even easier to determine a ship's course. If you are feeling courageous, come up to periscope depth and raise the ESM mast and take some readings, or even pop the scope up and get a visual on your target.

After about a week of just playing around with it and observing autoTMA you will have a good enough grasp to use it just fine.

That being said, I personally just leave autoTMA on as I find it to be a hassle to always do it manually. But it is very important to be able to TMA manually, because autotma is slow and is not always accurate. Also it can not do things like deliberately put a contact in the wrong spot to make firing torpedos or rockets easier (For example if you wanted to shoot a torpedo at the area you think a ship will flee to when he hears your torpedo. The only other way to do that is with a snapshot which is not as accurate, especially with non-wire guided torps like in the Kilo)

Henson · 04-19-06, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildcat

DW makes it very easy in fact, because you get a 'stack the dots' line that is not available in real life or in SH2/3. Basically you just have to play around with the arrow at the end of the line.. Stretch it out or move it to any direction on the compass.. Try doing that and alternating between show truth on and off. Check to see the positioning between your solution and the show truth map.

As an FT (TMA operator on US subs) the great thing about DW and SC is that the way TMA is emulated is pretty much dead on target. For decades US fire control systems have used a difference dot stack to track contacts, and it works. Match bearing and bearing rate, then wait and watch your dot stack. If it tracks left, increase your solution bearing rate to the left; vice verse for the right. After some practice you can even tell the difference between a range error and a course/speed error just by looking at it.

There are some nifty ranging maneuvers that are missing from the game, but there are reasons for that.

My best advice for someone doing their own TMA is to srive bearing rate as much as you can, because the higher your bearing rate is, the better your solution will be. You do this by changing the line of sight as much as possible with each maneuver. Lag line of sight is best: turning from an overlead (where we pass in front of him) to a lag will almot lock a guy up, as well as really drive some bearing rate.

If it wasn't for the manual TMA, I would probably not play this game.

SKeeM · 04-19-06, 08:10 PM

I belive manual TMA is were the game is at. In multi play thats were a players skill level comes out. But when proving skill it is best for both players to have the same platform. I think playing with the SW in multi play is = to useing a hack or exploit. 688's and Akula's are were the game is at.

03-25-06, 08:55 PM	#1
Kurushio Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Landlubber saying "ahoy!" Hi! I've moved up from SH3 to DW. Though admitedly I never got past the Type IIA in SH3. I just love that boat to bits...so cosy. Anyway...DW is very hard. The thing that sets it out from SH3 is that you can't really train on it's various platforms or get to know them much as your thrown in the thick of things from the beginning. I've pretty much got to know how to use the MH60. But the TMA is proving a tough propsition on other platforms. Could someone answer me what "bearing" is exactly? In SH3 the bearing given would be relative to your course, I believe? So if I was on a heading of 180 and the contact was at 180, it would be deirectly behind me (north), yes? In Dw if I have a heading of 180 and the contact is at 180, it would be in front of me (south)? Is that correct? The bearing in DW is relative to magnetic north? Damn hard learning navy stuff....

03-25-06, 10:06 PM	#2
MaHuJa Sonar Guy Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 59.96156N 11.02255E Posts: 385 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Did you choose your name based on your nationality? Anyway, bearing... there are two types of bearings, there are the Absolute bearings, which is which direction on the map the target is in (0 is north, but I believe magnetic north varies a bit), and there is the relative bearing, which is relative to your course. The places where you have binoculars available, said binocs will provide relative bearings, but other than that, DW operates with absolute bearings. You can make your own training missions, or use some that others have made, if you need to. TMA is a hard thing to learn. It's why one usually leaves it to the autocrew until one has learned the rest of the stations. Many never learn to do it manually at all. One tip I can give you right now is that it's a gigo process - garbage in, garbage out. Without proper data you won't get it correct except by sheer luck. If you have more questions, feel free to ask. If you want tutoring missions for some platform, also feel free to ask. http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/jo...howjournal&j=4 __________________ Teaching DW newbies how to climb the food chain.

03-26-06, 03:05 AM	#4
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	Kurushio as MaHuJa said some excellent players have never learnt/mastered manual TMA. Coming fresh to DW I would address manual sonar first taking the Kilo which simplifies the process as the absence of a TA removes the complication of sorting-out ghost contacts. Learn all the stations and practice with Quick Missions. Move on to the 688 (some say Akula next) to get used to the waterfall then on to the Ak where now familiar with the circular sonar and 'ghosts' you can now make better progress. Finaly take the SW where the WAA is a benefit but the fiddly inter- phase takes some getting used to. The QMs are a superb way of practicing and I would stay there initialy - its like a golf driving range - get into your swing before you cut out on to the course. __________________ Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

03-26-06, 10:46 AM	#6
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	[quote="Kurushio"]Mahuja....no I'm not Japanese. I chose the name cos it's in the book I'm reading at the moment; Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honour". It's one of the Japanese subs in the book, means "Black Tide" apparently...nice name for a sub INMHO. Thanks for the clearup with the bearing issue...can't believe I went so long without ever reading that anywhere. SH3 would've made a lot more sense if I'd known before. Hi SeaQueen ....yeah I'll stick to TMA but rereading the sectiion in the manual last night gave me a migraine... I was beginning to sort of get the gist when I came to the part that says"Contacts marked in Active Sonar, Radar and Stadimeter appear as a bearing/range pair on the TMA board." What? The bearing lines for these contacts will be shorter than normal, and have a little "flag" on the end indicating range. __________________

03-26-06, 11:13 AM	#8
suBB Chief Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 326 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	a little hint for the manual TMA'ers out there @ Kurushio I think its good going manual as i hear a majority favors autoTMA.. MHO, which ruins the experience altogether.. id rather miss the dive than autoTMA... For me, manual TMA is an entirely new playing experience, development of skills, deeper appreciation of the sim, more realistic, a pain in the @ss sometimes.. and in some cases sheer tactics... I'd encourage/support anyone who chooses manual TMA... Since 688i(1997) i been doing manual TMA and dont think that will change anytime soon.. but as a bit of advice thats helped me over the years for anyone going manual and im not kidding. advice: it doesnt have to be wrong and it doesnt have to be right.. it just has to make sense.... ...its one of those aspects of the game you have to get a feel for.. timmyGoos' doc is a good starting point.. but it really just boils down to application, your perferred method which comes in time, gameplay experience, practice.. just hang in there man good luck w manual tma

03-26-06, 10:41 AM	#5
Kurushio Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Mahuja....no I'm not Japanese. I chose the name cos it's in the book I'm reading at the moment; Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honour". It's one of the Japanese subs in the book, means "Black Tide" apparently...nice name for a sub INMHO. Thanks for the clearup with the bearing issue...can't believe I went so long without ever reading that anywhere. SH3 would've made a lot more sense if I'd known before. Hi SeaQueen ....yeah I'll stick to TMA but rereading the sectiion in the manual last night gave me a migraine... I was beginning to sort of get the gist when I came to the part that says"Contacts marked in Active Sonar, Radar and Stadimeter appear as a bearing/range pair on the TMA board." What? Bellman, I am in fact trying to master the Kilo because logical thinking would make it closest to a WW2 sub of which I am a bit used too, the Kilo being diesel and all. Though I found it's like going from a horse-and-cart to the latest Mercedes Benz car.

03-26-06, 11:58 AM	#10
suBB Chief Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 326 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	@ Molon labe veerrrryyy niiiicccee (cylon evolution) so... where can i get a bumper sticker?!?!? hahahaha what an incredible show that is... cant wait for next season

03-26-06, 02:22 PM	#12
Kurushio Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Thanks for all the info guys....very useful. Yeah I've always started at the deep end with simulator games. I play everything manual, same with SH3 where I started with 100 per cent realism. Games last longer that way :P

04-18-06, 10:46 PM	#13
Wildcat Engineer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 215 Downloads: 69 Uploads: 0	I personally found it to be a great help when I transitioned from SH2, I was used to manually plotting ship courses from periscope readings. I actually had sheets of paper, a protractor and pencil and would mark down the periscope readings every 2 minutes to get a solution on a long shot, i.e. 3km or more. You will find that it's very much similar in Sub Command or Dangerous Waters. DW makes it very easy in fact, because you get a 'stack the dots' line that is not available in real life or in SH2/3. Basically you just have to play around with the arrow at the end of the line.. Stretch it out or move it to any direction on the compass.. Try doing that and alternating between show truth on and off. Check to see the positioning between your solution and the show truth map. Another good indicator for manual TMA is to watch the bearing of a contact on your sensors. If it's a sonar contact, watch to see if your contact is sliding off to the north or south. Make occasional 20-30 degree turns to make it even easier to determine a ship's course. If you are feeling courageous, come up to periscope depth and raise the ESM mast and take some readings, or even pop the scope up and get a visual on your target. After about a week of just playing around with it and observing autoTMA you will have a good enough grasp to use it just fine. That being said, I personally just leave autoTMA on as I find it to be a hassle to always do it manually. But it is very important to be able to TMA manually, because autotma is slow and is not always accurate. Also it can not do things like deliberately put a contact in the wrong spot to make firing torpedos or rockets easier (For example if you wanted to shoot a torpedo at the area you think a ship will flee to when he hears your torpedo. The only other way to do that is with a snapshot which is not as accurate, especially with non-wire guided torps like in the Kilo)

04-19-06, 08:10 PM	#15
SKeeM Sailor man Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bronx, NY Posts: 47 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I belive manual TMA is were the game is at. In multi play thats were a players skill level comes out. But when proving skill it is best for both players to have the same platform. I think playing with the SW in multi play is = to useing a hack or exploit. 688's and Akula's are were the game is at.