Active sonar ASW vessels and you

JamesT73J · 03-23-06, 04:46 AM

What kind of detection ranges do you typically encounter? I was playing a custom mission with (using the fab LWAMI mod) and was quite surprised to get tagged by an Iranian SAAM at about 10kyds, at least, that's when I got the sixth light on the active intercept. My fault - I thought he had turned away from me but realised that he was in fact closing, but I was too late. I got the full effect of DW's AI unit coordination, and it hurt!

Alot of this is down to me playing the patience game (this unit was not a target in the mission), and the acoustic conditions were very good (picked up the SAAM at about 50 kyds), but I have to say in all the time I played Sub Command and DW, I didn't tend to let ASW units get anywhere near close enough to detect me.

Is it possible to sneak up on targets using active, close enough to ID them through peri?

Dr.Sid · 03-23-06, 05:59 AM

Things afecting active sonar:

-Target's aspect and size. If you face pinger, you will give little return. The difference is really big (try it with mission editor), but I doubt you could get close enough for visual ID.
-Position - pinging ships can't cover full circle. This is however VERY tricky, since ships can (and do) turn quiclky.
-Layers. With strong layer you can get about 5 miles away. But you must be under the layer, and sometimes even at very specific depth. No visual ID possible.
-Surface noise. Rough seas makes it really hard for active sonar. Especially if the other player is human. AI sonar is somewhat simplified, I can't tell how much. But, for visual ID too.
-Last, but not least .. pingers speed. Pinging ships sometimes move too fast to really detect anything.

All around, to visual ID pinging ship is usually not popssible. It is possible how ever to get close enough for good sonar ID and for radio-waves ID.

10nm is about the distance you usually get detected, until you are very carefull.

Molon Labe · 03-23-06, 07:34 AM

You managed to get to 5nm without being deteced, when usually detection is at 10nm, and this is a problem?

What do the FFG drivers have to say about that?

In all seriousness, you managed to get damn close, and the fact that you did shows that the active sonar model is working correctly (instead of giving them automatic detctions at 10nm like it used to). If it was possible to get much closer, then ASW skimmers would be completely useless, and that does not make for an interesting game.

TLAM Strike · 03-23-06, 01:42 PM

With the Kilo Imp, a strong layer and a lot of balls you and pass right under an enemy ASW ship. I did this to an Burke DDG once then fired three 53-65K torpedoes right up its tail KABOOM!

Dr.Sid · 03-23-06, 01:46 PM

Yeah .. Kilo gives little reflection .. but no matter how strong layer, sound can get thru under steep angle (ie. when you're closer). I guess pinger had to do something wrong (like going too fast).
But nobody really knows what can current sound propagation model do ..
all we know now is that you never know :-)

GunnersMate · 03-23-06, 07:15 PM

What about HiFreqSonar ?

BigBadVuk · 03-23-06, 11:22 PM

Not 100% shure but i think AI dont use HiFreq.

However if u r in multiplayer...be careful..it can be nasty shock if u r in close quarters fight!

Bellman · 03-24-06, 12:02 AM

TLAM:

Quote:

....a strong layer and a lot of balls you and (can ?) pass right under an enemy ASW ship. I did this to an Burke DDG

Yeah right - I see you 'adjusted' the Nimitz cover - did'nt take any nerve to fool her support, as originaly set-up,
in 'Sink the Nimitz'

JamesT73J · 03-24-06, 04:28 AM

Hehe, I wasn't complaining, just curious to hear other people's experiences. I'm playing much longer games now, and after owning it for over a year I'm finally getting time to get under DW's skin.

Of interest was the fact that I heard the Saam's sound on NB some time before i actually heard him pinging, and the pings were four about 5 seconds apart and then a 40ish second gap ,then another four - rotating set perhaps?

All a bit different from SC where'd they just bang away with sonar constantly!

jason taylor · 08-03-06, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellman

TLAM:

Quote:

....a strong layer and a lot of balls you and (can ?) pass right under an enemy ASW ship. I did this to an Burke DDG

Yeah right - I see you 'adjusted' the Nimitz cover - did'nt take any nerve to fool her support, as originaly set-up,
in 'Sink the Nimitz'

________________________________
the AI has no discipline in Sink the Nimitz-they ping away loudly enough to wake the dead, and help the Akula more then themselves

jason taylor · 08-03-06, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellman

TLAM:

Quote:

....a strong layer and a lot of balls you and (can ?) pass right under an enemy ASW ship. I did this to an Burke DDG

Yeah right - I see you 'adjusted' the Nimitz cover - did'nt take any nerve to fool her support, as originaly set-up,
in 'Sink the Nimitz'

________________________________
the AI has no discipline in Sink the Nimitz-they ping away loudly enough to wake the dead, and help the Akula more then themselves

__________________________________________________ ___________

They ping away while heading at between 15-25 knots. There is a handy thermocline. You can go down below, spend a few minutes rearrangeing your torpedo plans. Then speed ahead, cut to five knots, go back up and, "Eixtende the towed hydrowl low-cay-tore." You should be right in the middle of the task force and you can wait. The Americans will make enough noice to make it fairly easy to find them.
Sink the Nimitz is an entertaining scenario, not to difficult but good enough for a newbie-or simply to be used as a "quickie".

SeaQueen · 08-04-06, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Things afecting active sonar:
All around, to visual ID pinging ship is usually not popssible.

Not true at all. In the Kilo, I don't shoot until I'm close enough to see at least the top of the mast, and usually I end up popping up in the middle of the formation I'm attacking, so most of the time I see a whole lot more. Visual ID is not a problem if you're shrewd. You have to be smart about managing what aspect you present to him and your depth. If you are careful about what depth you pick, you won't even pick him up on your active intercept.

03-23-06, 04:46 AM	#1
JamesT73J Medic Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 167 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Active sonar ASW vessels and you What kind of detection ranges do you typically encounter? I was playing a custom mission with (using the fab LWAMI mod) and was quite surprised to get tagged by an Iranian SAAM at about 10kyds, at least, that's when I got the sixth light on the active intercept. My fault - I thought he had turned away from me but realised that he was in fact closing, but I was too late. I got the full effect of DW's AI unit coordination, and it hurt! Alot of this is down to me playing the patience game (this unit was not a target in the mission), and the acoustic conditions were very good (picked up the SAAM at about 50 kyds), but I have to say in all the time I played Sub Command and DW, I didn't tend to let ASW units get anywhere near close enough to detect me. Is it possible to sneak up on targets using active, close enough to ID them through peri?

03-23-06, 07:34 AM	#3
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	You managed to get to 5nm without being deteced, when usually detection is at 10nm, and this is a problem? What do the FFG drivers have to say about that? In all seriousness, you managed to get damn close, and the fact that you did shows that the active sonar model is working correctly (instead of giving them automatic detctions at 10nm like it used to). If it was possible to get much closer, then ASW skimmers would be completely useless, and that does not make for an interesting game. __________________

03-23-06, 01:42 PM	#4
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	With the Kilo Imp, a strong layer and a lot of balls you and pass right under an enemy ASW ship. I did this to an Burke DDG once then fired three 53-65K torpedoes right up its tail KABOOM! __________________

03-23-06, 07:15 PM	#6
GunnersMate Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USS Sea Tiger Posts: 251 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	What about HiFreqSonar ? __________________ \"Sir they just fired an Exocet at us!\" \"Very well, Bosn pipe Sweepers\" I\'m having trouble with the radar, sir. What\'s wrong with it? I\'ve lost the bleeps, I\'ve lost the sweeps, and I\'ve lost the creeps.

03-23-06, 11:22 PM	#7
BigBadVuk Ensign Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Belgrade,Serbia Posts: 222 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Not 100% shure but i think AI dont use HiFreq. However if u r in multiplayer...be careful..it can be nasty shock if u r in close quarters fight! __________________ Any ship can submerge.. Only submarine can surface!

03-23-06, 05:59 AM	#2
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Things afecting active sonar: -Target's aspect and size. If you face pinger, you will give little return. The difference is really big (try it with mission editor), but I doubt you could get close enough for visual ID. -Position - pinging ships can't cover full circle. This is however VERY tricky, since ships can (and do) turn quiclky. -Layers. With strong layer you can get about 5 miles away. But you must be under the layer, and sometimes even at very specific depth. No visual ID possible. -Surface noise. Rough seas makes it really hard for active sonar. Especially if the other player is human. AI sonar is somewhat simplified, I can't tell how much. But, for visual ID too. -Last, but not least .. pingers speed. Pinging ships sometimes move too fast to really detect anything. All around, to visual ID pinging ship is usually not popssible. It is possible how ever to get close enough for good sonar ID and for radio-waves ID. 10nm is about the distance you usually get detected, until you are very carefull.

03-23-06, 01:46 PM	#5
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Yeah .. Kilo gives little reflection .. but no matter how strong layer, sound can get thru under steep angle (ie. when you're closer). I guess pinger had to do something wrong (like going too fast). But nobody really knows what can current sound propagation model do .. all we know now is that you never know :-)

03-24-06, 04:28 AM	#9
JamesT73J Medic Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 167 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Hehe, I wasn't complaining, just curious to hear other people's experiences. I'm playing much longer games now, and after owning it for over a year I'm finally getting time to get under DW's skin. Of interest was the fact that I heard the Saam's sound on NB some time before i actually heard him pinging, and the pings were four about 5 seconds apart and then a 40ish second gap ,then another four - rotating set perhaps? All a bit different from SC where'd they just bang away with sonar constantly!