classification of contacts

Nexus7 · 02-25-06, 02:42 AM

I think everybody knows how problematic it is to classify each contact in a set of contacts on the same bearing (i.e. Task Forces).
The frequencies can overlap making identification a difficult task...

So why shouldn't the computery deliver us each set of frequencies with a different colour? (i.e. green blue red...)

Wouldn't that be very helpful?

just an idea...

Bellman · 02-25-06, 03:29 AM

But its the Nav map where I would like to see SCS giving us some extra tools in the form of drawing aids
and/or symbols.We have limited possibilities to mark up Nav - . But its fiddly and time wasting. Just a palette
of other assignable icons or symbols for the gamer to select for Nav and allocate to taste.

As the Nav is inadequate, I now have made my own interphase between sonar and Nav.

Dang - it having a bad day for wandering off topic !!

Sorry guys.

Your chatting away merrily about football and this guy pipes up - ''Saw a Type 20 loco on moday at...........'' yap, yap.

sonar732 · 02-25-06, 09:10 AM

From my response in patch sugestion...

Nexus7,

Back in 1995, the FRAZ display looked and felt like the current NB of DW for 688's and Seawolves of course.

Question #1: The FRAZ operator would communicate with the SA or TA operators as to what he's seeing and if his guys to the right (how it was set up on my boat, Alaska 732). The only other way we knew what it was is a big red book marked "Top Secret" which showed NB frequencies for every boat and ship class in the world. By the way...I do play with headsets while in SA or TA BB.

Question #2: The FRAZ display doesn't give you two different colors for easier classification.

Nexus7 · 02-25-06, 10:49 AM

Sonar732,

the bit i know about BB and NB sonar in DW doesn't include "sound" as a source of information, except if the ctc is a loud surface, a torpedo or a CM, and from your answer this seems to mirror the reality

As a matter of a fact by overlapping contacts that send more than 1 frequency each, the computer knows what frequencies belong to the same contact.

I know that NB is not primarily used to assign trackers, but you can, and if you try to assign tracker to the second frequency of a contact when you already marked his first frequency, nothing happens, and i think that's because the computer knows that this contact already has a tracker...

Consequently it should be easy and IMO welcome to filtrate the frequencies on NB (in case of overlapping contacts) to yeld the clean set of frequencies of a single contact (i.e. scroll down menue with contacts to chose).

I think even in RL the phenomena of overlapping frequencies can appear, and since things aboard a sub have to be quick & exact I don't understand why such a tool shouldn't be there to be used...

Bellman · 02-25-06, 10:54 AM

Sonar732 you say you play with headsets, so do I, so can I ask you
to what extent DW mirrors the real BB sounds ?

In-game can the player go beyond getting broad classifications of type, can he be more specific in identification ?
Is it something worth learning and practising when NB is pretty fruitful ?

I must admit to not paying enough attention to this aspect. though. :hmm:

Also with the Demon in-game while I am roughly familiar with blade counts and what the sub return
looks like - would it repay the gamer to be able to recognise and make broad classifications ?

Sorry Nexus7 we posted at the same time and I am still wandering off your topic.

:

sonar732 · 02-25-06, 12:11 PM

All that I will say is that my observations are based from 1995 technology. What has been completed in the 11 years, who knows, but that is how we did it back then.

If you have a strong NB signal with different frequencies then the weak NB signal of a different platform, the computer will always go for the strong one. In RL, that is why we had the "Top Secret" red book...we had to do it ourselves...look up what the "rouge" frequency was of the weak signal because more than likely, it was a threat.

All of these people that complain about a traffic heavy BB or NB need to stop complaining because that is what it was like in RL...trackers moving from one line to another because they overlapped. I can remember getting yelled at by the instructor during our training because I wasn't paying close enough attention to the combined track of two contacts. They were so close that I couldn't tell which was which and had to basically sit on them until they moved farther apart.

Bellman, for the most part, the sounds are "close" to what it is in RL. Granted, I miss being able to hear the hull popping of a submarine or the actual cavitation being produced. Shoot...I still tap my fingers trying to get a turn count. :rotfl:

When you say "can he be more specific in identification?", I admit that I'm a little confused. In RL, we could tell if something had a "quirk" that seperated it from the class of boat/ship...bad shaft seals, messed up propellor, etc.

sonar732 · 02-25-06, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus7

I know that NB is not primarily used to assign trackers, but you can, and if you try to assign tracker to the second frequency of a contact when you already marked his first frequency, nothing happens, and i think that's because the computer knows that this contact already has a tracker.

Why would you want to assign more than one tracker on the same contact from the same detection mode? I can understand if you found him in the SA NB and assign a tracker there and then assign a TA NB tracker to a different frequency, but as I asked, why the same detection mode?

Nexus7 · 02-25-06, 02:35 PM

Sonar732,

I feared I wouldnt be able to explain and that's what happened

Quote:

Why would you want to assign more than one tracker on the same contact from the same detection mode? I can understand if you found him in the SA NB and assign a tracker there and then assign a TA NB tracker to a different frequency, but as I asked, why the same detection mode?

I don't want to do that and I'm happy it doesn't work.

The fact that it doesn't, means to me that the computer (or whatever else) knows what frequency belongs to what contact, thus allowing (theorically) to ask the computer something like "show me only the frequencies of contact S01".

Not easy but should be possible :hmm:

sonar732 · 02-25-06, 02:40 PM

In a word....Nope.

Fish · 02-25-06, 03:16 PM

Interesting narrowband display on this side.
Perhaps Sonar can tell us what it is?

http://www.nrotc.umn.edu/wolfpack/su...nartactics.ppt

Nexus7 · 02-25-06, 04:10 PM

What is that frame named filter?

compressioncut · 02-25-06, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish

Interesting narrowband display on this side.
Perhaps Sonar can tell us what it is?

http://www.nrotc.umn.edu/wolfpack/su...nartactics.ppt

Which one, the COTS display on slide 21? It looks like a post-analysis program, not something you'd see on a tactical display. The peaks show the intensity of the frequency. It's like the program the guys who we send our tapes to use, but not used on the ship.

sonar732 · 02-25-06, 08:55 PM

I would've needed a sock if my FRAZ looked like that! :rotfl:

Like I said, without keeping up to date on the current technology, I don't know what the Virginia, Seawolf, 688's, or Ohios use now. Please keep in mind that I used the ancient Q-6 sonar system.

Dr.Sid · 02-26-06, 06:45 AM

It can't be different colours, just because the sonar computer does not know that these are 2 contacts. NB even does not know that different freuquencies are part of the same contact (while DW always knows which lines are of the same contact).
All I would like is that filtered singatures would include all signatures which could match. Now when actual signature has more lines then library singature, the library signature is rejected. Which happens when you have 2 contacts on same bearing.
So if library signature has 4 lines and all are available on actual NB bearing, even if there are 4 or 20 more, the signature should be available for clasification (it is not now).

MaHuJa · 02-26-06, 08:03 AM

One thing we do not have to fight in DW, is the sound bending across bearings, depending on frequency. IOW, if you cannot assign a tracker to S1:60 and another to S1:125, that is an artificial limitation.

When I come across such, I usually do not spend too much time trying to get sonar classifications - just sending torpedoes into the formation usually wreaks havoc anyway. (I usually try to determine that they are the hostiles I'm hunting for, but that's usually not that hard.)

Occasionally I've sunk more ships than I've spent torpedoes.

02-25-06, 10:54 AM	#5
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	Sonar732 you say you play with headsets, so do I, so can I ask you to what extent DW mirrors the real BB sounds ? In-game can the player go beyond getting broad classifications of type, can he be more specific in identification ? Is it something worth learning and practising when NB is pretty fruitful ? I must admit to not paying enough attention to this aspect. though. :hmm: Also with the Demon in-game while I am roughly familiar with blade counts and what the sub return looks like - would it repay the gamer to be able to recognise and make broad classifications ? Sorry Nexus7 we posted at the same time and I am still wandering off your topic. : __________________ Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

02-26-06, 08:03 AM	#15
MaHuJa Sonar Guy Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 59.96156N 11.02255E Posts: 385 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	One thing we do not have to fight in DW, is the sound bending across bearings, depending on frequency. IOW, if you cannot assign a tracker to S1:60 and another to S1:125, that is an artificial limitation. When I come across such, I usually do not spend too much time trying to get sonar classifications - just sending torpedoes into the formation usually wreaks havoc anyway. (I usually try to determine that they are the hostiles I'm hunting for, but that's usually not that hard.) Occasionally I've sunk more ships than I've spent torpedoes. __________________ Teaching DW newbies how to climb the food chain.

02-25-06, 02:42 AM	#1
Nexus7 Commander Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 469 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	classification of contacts I think everybody knows how problematic it is to classify each contact in a set of contacts on the same bearing (i.e. Task Forces). The frequencies can overlap making identification a difficult task... So why shouldn't the computery deliver us each set of frequencies with a different colour? (i.e. green blue red...) Wouldn't that be very helpful? just an idea...

02-25-06, 03:29 AM	#2
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	But its the Nav map where I would like to see SCS giving us some extra tools in the form of drawing aids and/or symbols.We have limited possibilities to mark up Nav - . But its fiddly and time wasting. Just a palette of other assignable icons or symbols for the gamer to select for Nav and allocate to taste. As the Nav is inadequate, I now have made my own interphase between sonar and Nav. Dang - it having a bad day for wandering off topic !! Sorry guys. Your chatting away merrily about football and this guy pipes up - ''Saw a Type 20 loco on moday at...........'' yap, yap. __________________ Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

02-25-06, 09:10 AM	#3
sonar732 The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Central MO Posts: 1,562 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	From my response in patch sugestion... Nexus7, Back in 1995, the FRAZ display looked and felt like the current NB of DW for 688's and Seawolves of course. Question #1: The FRAZ operator would communicate with the SA or TA operators as to what he's seeing and if his guys to the right (how it was set up on my boat, Alaska 732). The only other way we knew what it was is a big red book marked "Top Secret" which showed NB frequencies for every boat and ship class in the world. By the way...I do play with headsets while in SA or TA BB. Question #2: The FRAZ display doesn't give you two different colors for easier classification.

02-25-06, 10:49 AM	#4
Nexus7 Commander Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 469 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Sonar732, the bit i know about BB and NB sonar in DW doesn't include "sound" as a source of information, except if the ctc is a loud surface, a torpedo or a CM, and from your answer this seems to mirror the reality As a matter of a fact by overlapping contacts that send more than 1 frequency each, the computer knows what frequencies belong to the same contact. I know that NB is not primarily used to assign trackers, but you can, and if you try to assign tracker to the second frequency of a contact when you already marked his first frequency, nothing happens, and i think that's because the computer knows that this contact already has a tracker... Consequently it should be easy and IMO welcome to filtrate the frequencies on NB (in case of overlapping contacts) to yeld the clean set of frequencies of a single contact (i.e. scroll down menue with contacts to chose). I think even in RL the phenomena of overlapping frequencies can appear, and since things aboard a sub have to be quick & exact I don't understand why such a tool shouldn't be there to be used...

02-25-06, 12:11 PM	#6
sonar732 The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Central MO Posts: 1,562 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	All that I will say is that my observations are based from 1995 technology. What has been completed in the 11 years, who knows, but that is how we did it back then. If you have a strong NB signal with different frequencies then the weak NB signal of a different platform, the computer will always go for the strong one. In RL, that is why we had the "Top Secret" red book...we had to do it ourselves...look up what the "rouge" frequency was of the weak signal because more than likely, it was a threat. All of these people that complain about a traffic heavy BB or NB need to stop complaining because that is what it was like in RL...trackers moving from one line to another because they overlapped. I can remember getting yelled at by the instructor during our training because I wasn't paying close enough attention to the combined track of two contacts. They were so close that I couldn't tell which was which and had to basically sit on them until they moved farther apart. Bellman, for the most part, the sounds are "close" to what it is in RL. Granted, I miss being able to hear the hull popping of a submarine or the actual cavitation being produced. Shoot...I still tap my fingers trying to get a turn count. :rotfl: When you say "can he be more specific in identification?", I admit that I'm a little confused. In RL, we could tell if something had a "quirk" that seperated it from the class of boat/ship...bad shaft seals, messed up propellor, etc.

02-25-06, 02:40 PM	#9
sonar732 The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Central MO Posts: 1,562 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	In a word....Nope.

02-25-06, 03:16 PM	#10
Fish Eternal Patrol Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,923 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Interesting narrowband display on this side. Perhaps Sonar can tell us what it is? http://www.nrotc.umn.edu/wolfpack/su...nartactics.ppt

02-25-06, 04:10 PM	#11
Nexus7 Commander Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 469 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	What is that frame named filter?

02-25-06, 08:55 PM	#13
sonar732 The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Central MO Posts: 1,562 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	I would've needed a sock if my FRAZ looked like that! :rotfl: Like I said, without keeping up to date on the current technology, I don't know what the Virginia, Seawolf, 688's, or Ohios use now. Please keep in mind that I used the ancient Q-6 sonar system.

02-26-06, 06:45 AM	#14
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	It can't be different colours, just because the sonar computer does not know that these are 2 contacts. NB even does not know that different freuquencies are part of the same contact (while DW always knows which lines are of the same contact). All I would like is that filtered singatures would include all signatures which could match. Now when actual signature has more lines then library singature, the library signature is rejected. Which happens when you have 2 contacts on same bearing. So if library signature has 4 lines and all are available on actual NB bearing, even if there are 4 or 20 more, the signature should be available for clasification (it is not now).