Counter measures for the AI

madcap30 · 02-15-06, 09:56 AM

hey all.
I was wondering how come, the AI Units dont use CMÂ´S. I have lost several AI HeloÂ´s to sam fire from human subs, And they dont punch out any flares. This behaviour also happens even if the helo is more than 20nm away from the shooter.
I would really like to see some CMÂ´s on the HeloÂ´s at least. So they last a bit longer in prosecuting human subs.

Also what is the story with the Recovery? how come the helo takes forever to get back on the frigate even if the frigate is at all stop.
takes a good 15-20 min for it to land, which is not good when in combat.

Okay im gonna stop ranting for now.

Keep it real
Madcap

Molon Labe · 02-15-06, 10:33 AM

Outside of limited LW/Ami Beta testing, I've never seen an anti-air missile pursue a flare or chaff instead of the real target anyways.

madcap30 · 02-15-06, 11:49 AM

then they need to change to code in the game. Whats the point of model a Flare & Chaff if they are useless. Makes no sense whatsoever.

What they could do,is to make a proximity zone around the AI unit that dictates if the missile should hit or not. just make it a little random.

XabbaRus · 02-15-06, 01:33 PM

I have seen missiles go after chaff and flares.

Got to love the P-3 when you are in the TAcco station and a missile comes inbound. If autopilot is on it starts throwing you all over the place.

I think it mainly needs a doctrine update.

madcap30 · 02-15-06, 02:37 PM

rgr that, good to hear that the CMÂ´s are actually doing something

LuftWolf · 02-15-06, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

I have seen missiles go after chaff and flares.

Got to love the P-3 when you are in the TAcco station and a missile comes inbound. If autopilot is on it starts throwing you all over the place.

I think it mainly needs a doctrine update.

Doctrines only control the behavior of AI platforms, and for air platforms only to a limited degree.

All autocrew behavior for human controlled platforms is in the interface .dll's I am guessing.

XabbaRus · 02-15-06, 05:41 PM

But even AI aircraft I have seen dump CMs

LuftWolf · 02-15-06, 05:54 PM

Countermeasures ARE doctrine controlled, and aircraft do use them with frequency when they identify incoming missiles.

The reason most times that AI aircraft don't drop against incoming IR guided missiles is that they don't identify and classify them in time, which is more or less the case for aircraft in real life... as the only time you would have a warning of an incoming IR missile (except for experimental or new technology as far as I know) is if the pilot or a crewmember actually saw the missile coming towards the plane or helo.

Molon Labe · 02-15-06, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Countermeasures ARE doctrine controlled, and aircraft do use them with frequency when they identify incoming missiles.

The reason most times that AI aircraft don't drop against incoming IR guided missiles is that they don't identify and classify them in time, which is more or less the case for aircraft in real life... as the only time you would have a warning of an incoming IR missile (except for experimental or new technology as far as I know) is if the pilot or a crewmember actually saw the missile coming towards the plane or helo.

Except that in DW, a "feature" is to sometimes give the airdale a "enemy missile lock" warning for passive IR homing missiles!

BigBadVuk · 02-16-06, 03:17 AM

Well last night i was playing Orion quick mission set to medium...Just to sharpen my skills..and i chose DATUM search mission.
After 3-4 minutes of playing i get radio message with coordinates of sub but i also get the warnning "Enemy missile lock" so i started to dive and turn and also releasing chaffs all over the place and in 1 moment i heard just WHOOooosh...so i paused the game and turned on show Truth......
When i finaly roteted the camera to look behind my plane i saw white smoke trail some 100 ft behind me...Missile missed my plane and fly directly through staniol cloud......

SO i myst say..YES counter measures DO the job!( at least chaffs do)

Molon Labe · 02-16-06, 06:22 AM

Ah, but did it go for the CM or simply miss?

BigBadVuk · 02-16-06, 04:07 PM

Well Orion dont have ECM so effective as lets say B1-B or F15 and it is fairly big and even more SLOW target..so if u miss P-3C at range around 10 nm then how do u expect to kill anything more manuverable and faster???

And beside that why missile missed me so narow,and why did she hit the chaff(which atm was behind me and a way above me)...I think CM did their job nicely...

Molon Labe · 02-16-06, 04:49 PM

If you actually saw it hit the chaff, then great, but the way misses are modeled is the missile essentially travels "through" the target without detonating. This occurs at a set percentage, and I don't think the aircraft type or speed is accounted for.

XabbaRus · 02-16-06, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Except that in DW, a "feature" is to sometimes give the airdale a "enemy missile lock" warning for passive IR homing missiles!

Just like pretty much every other sim I have played.

Seriously though I have seen missiles go for the chaff and flare.

LuftWolf · 02-17-06, 12:19 AM

Molon, you and I have seen missiles go for flares in a certain test a few weeks ago...

02-15-06, 09:56 AM	#1
madcap30 Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Counter measures for the AI hey all. I was wondering how come, the AI Units dont use CMÂ´S. I have lost several AI HeloÂ´s to sam fire from human subs, And they dont punch out any flares. This behaviour also happens even if the helo is more than 20nm away from the shooter. I would really like to see some CMÂ´s on the HeloÂ´s at least. So they last a bit longer in prosecuting human subs. Also what is the story with the Recovery? how come the helo takes forever to get back on the frigate even if the frigate is at all stop. takes a good 15-20 min for it to land, which is not good when in combat. Okay im gonna stop ranting for now. Keep it real Madcap

02-15-06, 10:33 AM	#2
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	Outside of limited LW/Ami Beta testing, I've never seen an anti-air missile pursue a flare or chaff instead of the real target anyways. __________________

02-15-06, 01:33 PM	#4
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I have seen missiles go after chaff and flares. Got to love the P-3 when you are in the TAcco station and a missile comes inbound. If autopilot is on it starts throwing you all over the place. I think it mainly needs a doctrine update. __________________

02-15-06, 05:41 PM	#7
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	But even AI aircraft I have seen dump CMs __________________

02-15-06, 05:54 PM	#8
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Countermeasures ARE doctrine controlled, and aircraft do use them with frequency when they identify incoming missiles. The reason most times that AI aircraft don't drop against incoming IR guided missiles is that they don't identify and classify them in time, which is more or less the case for aircraft in real life... as the only time you would have a warning of an incoming IR missile (except for experimental or new technology as far as I know) is if the pilot or a crewmember actually saw the missile coming towards the plane or helo. __________________ LW

02-15-06, 11:49 AM	#3
madcap30 Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	then they need to change to code in the game. Whats the point of model a Flare & Chaff if they are useless. Makes no sense whatsoever. What they could do,is to make a proximity zone around the AI unit that dictates if the missile should hit or not. just make it a little random.

02-15-06, 02:37 PM	#5
madcap30 Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	rgr that, good to hear that the CMÂ´s are actually doing something

02-16-06, 03:17 AM	#10
BigBadVuk Ensign Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Belgrade,Serbia Posts: 222 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Well last night i was playing Orion quick mission set to medium...Just to sharpen my skills..and i chose DATUM search mission. After 3-4 minutes of playing i get radio message with coordinates of sub but i also get the warnning "Enemy missile lock" so i started to dive and turn and also releasing chaffs all over the place and in 1 moment i heard just WHOOooosh...so i paused the game and turned on show Truth...... When i finaly roteted the camera to look behind my plane i saw white smoke trail some 100 ft behind me...Missile missed my plane and fly directly through staniol cloud...... SO i myst say..YES counter measures DO the job!( at least chaffs do) __________________ Any ship can submerge.. Only submarine can surface!

02-16-06, 06:22 AM	#11
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	Ah, but did it go for the CM or simply miss? __________________

02-16-06, 04:07 PM	#12
BigBadVuk Ensign Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Belgrade,Serbia Posts: 222 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Well Orion dont have ECM so effective as lets say B1-B or F15 and it is fairly big and even more SLOW target..so if u miss P-3C at range around 10 nm then how do u expect to kill anything more manuverable and faster??? And beside that why missile missed me so narow,and why did she hit the chaff(which atm was behind me and a way above me)...I think CM did their job nicely... __________________ Any ship can submerge.. Only submarine can surface!

02-16-06, 04:49 PM	#13
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	If you actually saw it hit the chaff, then great, but the way misses are modeled is the missile essentially travels "through" the target without detonating. This occurs at a set percentage, and I don't think the aircraft type or speed is accounted for. __________________

02-17-06, 12:19 AM	#15
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Molon, you and I have seen missiles go for flares in a certain test a few weeks ago... __________________ LW