I got a crush on her - post your youth's idols!

[Skybird]

While I hijacked my own thread on page 2, I therefor decided to rename it. Original title was "A religion of Peace?"

I knew about stoning and cutting off a thief's hand. I did not know how barbaric and sick these already deeply perverted punishements are carried out. If you thionk it is a bout a quick swing with a sword, or two or three big rocks beeing thrown, you better think twice.

Be warned, the content of these videos is uncensored and mind-troubling. After having watched them try to argue that it is a civilised religion of peace, if you dare.



http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/handcutting.htm
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm

I especially liked this: "Art.104: Stones used in stoning should neither be so big as to kill the adulterous at the first or second blow, nor as small as a pebble."


I find the whole site worth to be examined.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Skybird

... After having watched them try to argue that it is a civilised religion of peace, if you dare.

You're absolutely right that these punishments belong to the Dark Ages. You are also right to put a question mark behind the name of the thread. But we can't generalise the whole Muslim community and we should all realise that there are few Muslim nations where these punishments are actually administred.
And those countries happen to be primitive and culturally backward anyway.

[jumpy]

I think I'll leave viewing this one until I get home from work tonight. Peeps here (work) might get the wrong idea.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Abraham

You're absolutely right that these punishments belong to the Dark Ages. You are also right to put a question mark behind the name of the thread. But we can't generalise the whole Muslim community and we should all realise that there are few Muslim nations where these punishments are actually administred.
And those countries happen to be primitive and culturally backward anyway.

These punishements are taught and ruled for by the same scriptures Muslim communites around the globe take as their basis. The are demanded by the Qu'ran. Do you know any Muslim community sayig it only takes some parts of the Quran, and rejects the other? I do not. islam teaches there is only one Qu'ran, as a whole, you cannot pick this and refuse that part. Historically there have been several different verisons of the Qu'ran, and they also changed, but it's not the first time that Islam is ignoring aspects nof it's own identity that are not welcomed in a given opportunistic situation. Today Qu'ran is considered to be ONE book only, one version.

You cannot separate Islam, Qu'ran, Theology and Insitution in Islam the way you are used to do that with for example the Church and Christianity. It simply does not compare. Like you can make linear tranbslation only for Western langauges, let's say English into German. but you cannot translate a Western language into Chinese, for example, not in a linear and comparable way. go into a book shop and pick ten difefrent versions of the TaoTeKing for example, and then read the same passage in all of them. Sometimes you will not realize that it is the same book you are reading.

Two totally different things.

that Islam still accepts part's of it's ummah to practice like shown in these videos tells something about it. Like it would tell something about the churches if they still were practicing the inquisition.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Abraham

And those countries happen to be primitive.

I would not describe the government of Saudi Arabia as "primitive". There are a lot of other words for it.

[tycho102]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I knew about stoning and cutting off a thief's hand. I did not know how barbaric and sick these already deeply perverted punishements are carried out. If you thionk it is a bout a quick swing with a sword, or two or three big rocks beeing thrown, you better think twice.

Moses also prescribed stoning of women who commit adultery, as well as a few other things. Don't think they do much of that in this day and age, but it's on the "Books".

Cutting off the hands of thieves is a bit of a "grey area" for me. Think about Enron stealing the retirement funds from all their employees. Think about Electronic Arts, Walmart, Microsoft, and a whole bunch of others refusing to pay overtime. Start chopping off the hands of management, and you'd see a slightly more "moral" preoccupation with cost-cutting measures. Or you'd see the legislators changing the laws, causing public outrage, causing companies to change their business structure, instead.

Personally, I'd like to see child molestors and rapists get....something....chopped off.




There are a few good things that Islam does right. I think public humiliation could help the attitude of some of America's rich-elite class, which is basically what Martha Stewart got. She was just one of the ones the Justice Department could catch, however, as only the strongest survive. "The successful criminal mind is always superior....it has to be."

[Skybird]

I am for public opunishement as well, and to rethink the concept of "Bewährungsstrafe" (suspended sentence). make people feel ashamed in public is very effective, especially for the powerful and the very young ones suspended penalties are not very impressive (telling that as an ex-psychologist here, you can even proove it in experimentss both with humans and animals).

For example a teenager who got caught the first time for stealing, with me having a say would end in prison before the week is over. I would not suspend the penalty. but I would cut it short, say 3-7 days only. Let him feel awa<y from home. Let him taste the air behind bars. Let him make the experience where it leads to when he continues on that path. Release after he got his share of experience of that. It's not about braking a 15 year old for having stolen a package of bubble gums, or peerfum. It is about to make him feel that whatver he does will have conseqeunces.

I find it pervert to let a death candiate wait for his execution 15 years. I find it pervert if a hand of thief is not only hacked off with an axe, but is cut off with a knife, like a butcher is working on dead meat. I find it poervert if someone is not only executioned, but is tortured to death. I find it pervert if this is labelled as an act of justive, or is done in the name of a God.

Are they Goa'ulds, maybe?

[STEED]

Skybird we all know this sort of thing goes on but to place a sick link to watch it that's bad tast.

[Skybird]

I also knew that it happens. I did NOT know, as I said, how sick it is carried out. I haven't placed the link for a motivation driven by sensation. I saw the vids days ago, when AL (I think it was her) first linked to the site of Apostacies, the homeoage she linked. Since then I was thinking if I should point attention to them, and so far had done that twice, indirectly, by just pointing to the major homepage, from where everyone who was examining the site may have discovered them.

Since public discussion - at least in germany - still is dominated by the well-meaning, tolerant, everything-negative-is-to qualify(relativieren)-attitude, I consider input like these videos to be kind of a healing shock.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

I would not describe the government of Saudi Arabia as "primitive". There are a lot of other words for it.

@ Skybird & The Avon Lady:
I would consider the mind frame, the outlook - or lack of it - to the world, of the Saoudi government "primitive", just as local rule in great parts of Pakistan, just as the former Taliban regime in Afghanistan, just as the regime in Somalia or Jemen.
Modern minded Muslim countries like Egypth, Indonesia, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Morocco, Tunesia, United Arab Emirates and others 'don't know these punishment and consequently the great majority of Muslims have nothing to do with those extreme forms of Sharia, still consider themselves to be devote Muslims.

That was the only point I was making.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by tycho102

Moses also prescribed stoning of women who commit adultery, as well as a few other things. Don't think they do much of that in this day and age, but it's on the "Books".

Minor corrections: G-d prescribed and it applies to men as well.

[jumpy]

Originally Posted by STEED

Skybird we all know this sort of thing goes on but to place a sick link to watch it that's bad tast.

If it was a direct link to the vid then yes, that might be different, but when you get to the page you don't have to watch anything if you don't wish to... I guess the folks there have a point to make for those who don't realise the sort of thing that goes on in the world today.
Let's face it most of us lead relatively sheltered lives, dissasociated from the more visceral aspects of 'humanity' -

If you have never seen a masked man slash the throat of an indonesian migrant worker (iirc) in Iraq 'cause he works for the yanks out there, waits untill he's bled to death all over the sand, making ghastly sucking and squealing sounds from his open throat and windpipe; like some kind of animal not a human being, then proceeds to saw the head from the torso with a large kitchen knife and displaying the severed head, whos eyes and mouth (I swear) can still be seen moving, atop the torso like some grizzly trophy, followed by shooting another dozen or so of the same workers in the back with an AK47 at point blank range, then you cannot truely appreciate how murderous and cruel some people can be and by extension, how cruel you or I coud be given the 'right circumstances or propper motivation'.

Just makes me sick thinking about it, but as I said, we live very sheltered lives over here and all of us should see our fellows and ourselves for what we really are. Make no mistake that is one of the true faces of humanity and once you've seen it you never forget what you and others are.
In a gruesome way the sooner the rest of us cushy westerners realise this the better, makes you better prepared to deal with such horrors if they come knocking on your door in the middle of the night.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by jumpy

If it was a direct link to the vid then yes, that might be different, but when you get to the page you don't have to watch anything if you don't wish to... I guess the folks there have a point to make for those who don't realise the sort of thing that goes on in the world today.
Let's face it most of us lead relatively sheltered lives, dissasociated from the more visceral aspects of 'humanity' -

If you have never seen a masked man slash the throat of an indonesian migrant worker (iirc) in Iraq 'cause he works for the yanks out there, waits untill he's bled to death all over the sand, making ghastly sucking and squealing sounds from his open throat and windpipe; like some kind of animal not a human being, then proceeds to saw the head from the torso with a large kitchen knife and displaying the severed head, whos eyes and mouth (I swear) can still be seen moving, atop the torso like some grizzly trophy, followed by shooting another dozen or so of the same workers in the back with an AK47 at point blank range, then you cannot truely appreciate how murderous and cruel some people can be and by extension, how cruel you or I coud be given the 'right circumstances or propper motivation'.

Just makes me sick thinking about it, but as I said, we live very sheltered lives over here and all of us should see our fellows and ourselves for what we really are. Make no mistake that is one of the true faces of humanity and once you've seen it you never forget what you and others are.
In a gruesome way the sooner the rest of us cushy westerners realise this the better, makes you better prepared to deal with such horrors if they come knocking on your door in the middle of the night.

Pardon are you suggesting which should watch this vile stuff?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Abraham

@ Skybird & The Avon Lady:
I would consider the mind frame, the outlook - or lack of it - to the world, of the Saoudi government "primitive", just as local rule in great parts of Pakistan, just as the former Taliban regime in Afghanistan, just as the regime in Somalia or Jemen.
Modern minded Muslim countries like Egypth, Indonesia, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Morocco, Tunesia, United Arab Emirates and others 'don't know these punishment and consequently the great majority of Muslims have nothing to do with those extreme forms of Sharia, still consider themselves to be devote Muslims.
That was the only point I was making.

Knowing egpt and jordan a bit I must correct you in so far, that, as in turkey, it makes a difference if you talk of the city population, or the population outside the cities, living in small villages only. Additionally, different to turkey, both countries are constantly travelled by beduin-like tribes, many of which are not that much Islamic at all. Even muhammad let them do as they want, to a certain degree, as long as they payed their taxes, for it was to difficult to keep them under control and make them submit to islam to the same degree as the settlements usually did. some of these tribes can be very proud people, I espeically think of the Tuaregs. Control of cities and settlements, while allowing some more loose rules for nomades is a pattern you can find in islam's history of expansion time and again. In a way it did like the maritime empires, that also concentrated their presence on regional hotspots and strategically important harbours and centers of economical interest, mostly never occupied the whole territory of a country, but sticking to the coastlines (Portugese, Spanish, Dutch, British, USA). By that I do not want to say that Islam IS a maritime empire. but it copies some behavioral patterns from these.

And there are other forms of Islamic behvior that I would describe as primitve, too. not only executions and Sharia. the role of women, beeing subject to enforced marriage at ridiculously low ages (currently a matter that is more and more urgently discussed in Germany, with regard to the Turks; muhammad himself has married a girl at the age of 9 or 10, I think, and insisted oin her sharing his bed); that public life excludes women (whom with marriage usually end imprisoned in their houses and households that they are not allowed to leave for the rest of their lifes - this is true to varying degrees, but it is practiced in ALL Islamic countries. Circumcision, while also true for male Jews, in Islam this affects little girls. And in several countries, especially the "far middle East", and north africa, this is done under very barbaric conditions, with tin-cans, without anesthetization, in most cases it leads to life-long traumatization, and often it leads to blood-poisening that kills or cripples the victim.
I do not go into theology here, but I indicate that there also is a lot of things that I would have no higher opinion of as what I stated in this thread.

Tolerance and beeing balanced is a nice thing, Abraham, but it must have limits. Islam sees no need for evolution, for it is the fulfillment of evolution. It does not develoep0e and forbids and supresses every tradition (philospophy, science, art, whatever) that could lead to change, and growth. That'S why it is stuck in the medieval. and thus I label it as primitive, compared to what has been acchieved in the West. What they have gained in using technology, scientific results, administrative and value things, did not come by their own effort. they copied it from the West, they bought it from the West, sometimes they steal it from the West. It is no result of their own effort and cultural developement. they are lacking the cultural basis for foriming such traditoions that led to the West'S superiroity in all these fields. Nevertheless now they claim the right of wanting to possess the benefits from it.

That argument includes: I doubt that they have the mental and moral ripeness of understanding the responsebility the possession of modern scietific and technolgical tools wpould mean. Even the West itself has problems with that. And isn't the West'S quarrel with Iran'S nuclear program exactly about this, in the end?


In how far a Muslim rejecting major parts of the scriptures and traditon can be called a Muslim is soemthing that I have discussed several times in past months. you cannot compare Islam to the church here. And on that we also had threads days and weeks ago. there are some reports of apostacies on that site that describe the experiences that made them change their minds, and memories describing how seriously distorted and hypocritical Muslims communites tend to be when describing their own feeling of identity - and I have complained about that as well. they can tell you one thing, and do the total opposite at the same time.

[Rockstar]

Genesis 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand [will be] against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

This wild man is Ishmael and his desendents who we are dealing with today.

All because Abram and Sari thought they needed to 'help' God rather than depend on his promise. Part of that promise, that a baren woman (Sarah)should bare Abraham a son (Issac).

Anyways my take on it is the desendants of Ishmael believe the land of Israel belongs to them as an inheritence. Fortunetly they will never be allowed to take it. They'll come close though and what a terrible time that will be.