Who had sunk the Bismarck?

[HanSolo78]

hello sailors!

just wanna know what the majority is thinking of this old mystery...
so.. write down your thoughts!

[Dutch]

Oh Boy, I think its a bad idea to even start this topic, to many hotheaded politcally people with overrated opinions but here is mine.

I personally think that the Germans sank the Bismarck themselves. Yes the British had shelled it to any inch of its life, but in the end I believe whole heartedly that Germans scuttled the ship.

No I'm not a neo Nazi or a Brit hater, I think if it hadn't been for the brits the germans whouldn't have scuttled it :P

Still I belive that in the end, it was the germans.

[Ducimus]

Havent read into it enough to hazard a guess.

Im neither german, nor british, so either one is fine with me. All i know is, germany had a big honking battleship in WW2 that made the allies really worried. They went out of their way to try and sink it, cause they coudlnt allow that thing running around.. Big battle, (broken rudder?), lottsa shells, few survivors, wreck is found years later and is featured in a national geographic.

[Bluewings]

By Chuck hawks :

"Every so often I receive an e-mail raising the question of whether the German battleship Bismarck was sunk by the British or scuttled by her crew on that fateful day in May 1941. I have promised that one day I would write a short piece about the subject, and I guess that day has finally come.

Frankly, I am mystified by the interest in this question, as the answer is obvious: it doesn't matter. The Bismarck's crew set the scuttling charges and opened the sea cocks (as per protocol) on the sinking Bismarck because she had been completely defeated, was no longer seaworthy, was beyond repair, and was being abandoned.

So the question of whether the Dorsetshire's torpedoes got to her before the actions of her own crew is irrelevant. The battle was over either way, and the Bismarck was going down. She absolutely was not going to make it to any safe haven. She had been utterly defeated, destroyed by a superior force.

The indisputable cause of these events? The British fleet commanded by Admiral Tovey. The Royal Navy properly deserves credit for sinking the Bismarck.

In conclusion, let quote a passage from Ludovic Kennedy's excellent book Pursuit - The Chase and Sinking of the Battleship Bismarck describing the actual sinking of the Bismarck as observed by the British (Mr. Kennedy was there in person):

"And as he left he [Adm. Tovey] made a general signal to ships in company: 'Any ship with torpedoes to close Bismarck and torpedo her.' "

"Only one ship, Dorsetshire, still had torpedoes, and when Tovey's signal reached her, Captain Martin had already anticipated it. Closing to a mile and a half on Bismarck's starboard beam, she fired two torpedoes, both of which hit. She then went round the other side, at just over a mile fired another, which also hit."

"Far off now in King George V, half-way to the horizon, Tovey saw through his glasses the great ship slowly heel over to port until her funnel was level with the water, go on turning until she was completely upside down. The stern dipped below the surface of the water, then the main keel: the great flared bows were the last to go . . .."

Cheers .

[Bluewings]

On the other hand :

James Cameron, who'd made the movie Titanic, launched an American expedition into the Bismarck wreck.

Bismarck was only slightly smaller than Titanic, and it was three thousand feet deeper -- three miles deep! There they found evidence to support the scuttling story.
They found torpedo holes, but none seemed to penetrate beyond the protective outer hull.

Cheers .

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Bluewings

Frankly, I am mystified by the interest in this question, as the answer is obvious: it doesn't matter.

The real credit, ultimately, should go to the Swordfish which messed up her steering. After that had happened, I think the Bismarck was doomed, whichever way it was to go down.

[Hartmann]

I´ve never seen the bismarck yet in a patrol

My bigger prey in a patrol was in Silent hunter 1

I sunk the yamato, but it takes 12 torpedoes.

[Ducimus]

Saw it in harbor once when leaving Willshimhaven to go on patrol.

[Wulfmann]

The Bismarck was sinking when the Germans scuttled the ship. They did so not to have bragging rights. He was shot up to the point of being defenseless and they feared the indignation of being boarded.
The ship would have sunk without the scuttling but they hurried it up.
I saw Cameron’s nice show and he did some fine photography and a great shot of the oh so jammed rudder, what doomed the ship anyway one looks at it.
But, he is ignorant of what torpedo damage is and his assessments are simply wrong. Those hits hurt and the fact they did not cause a complete collapse should not be construed to mean they did not cause serious flooding. The ship was dragged along the side of a mountain and additional damage left assessment speculative.
The Germans sped up the sinking of a sinking ship and they succeeded in preventing a feared boarding although I have not heard any Brit account say they were intending to board I understand the logic behind the scuttling for pride and that great ship deserved to go down proud.
That episode ranks the Bismarck as the greatest warship of the 20th century! Some will argue that but they are fools. Count the books, the many TV series and even the star of a movie

Wulfmann

[Type XXIII]

Originally Posted by CCIP

The real credit, ultimately, should go to the Swordfish which messed up her steering. After that had happened, I think the Bismarck was doomed, whichever way it was to go down.

Granted, after the steering was damaged by the improbable torpedo hit, the Bismarck was most likely going down sooner or later.

Still, the Bismarck would have dealt out alot more punishment on its way down, had it not been for the 8" shells of the HMS Dorsetshire that destoyed the forward control post, thus effectly preventing the forward main battery from firing.

What I'm trying to say is that it was not only luck from the British side that sunk the Bismarck, it was also suboptimal armor layout.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Hartmann

I´ve never seen the bismarck yet in a patrol

My bigger prey in a patrol was in Silent hunter 1

I sunk the yamato, but it takes 12 torpedoes.

You want to sink the Bismarck in your U-boat??

[joea]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

The Bismarck was sinking when the Germans scuttled the ship. They did so not to have bragging rights. He was shot up to the point of being defenseless and they feared the indignation of being boarded.
The ship would have sunk without the scuttling but they hurried it up.
I saw Cameron’s nice show and he did some fine photography and a great shot of the oh so jammed rudder, what doomed the ship anyway one looks at it.
But, he is ignorant of what torpedo damage is and his assessments are simply wrong. Those hits hurt and the fact they did not cause a complete collapse should not be construed to mean they did not cause serious flooding. The ship was dragged along the side of a mountain and additional damage left assessment speculative.
The Germans sped up the sinking of a sinking ship and they succeeded in preventing a feared boarding although I have not heard any Brit account say they were intending to board I understand the logic behind the scuttling for pride and that great ship deserved to go down proud.
That episode ranks the Bismarck as the greatest warship of the 20th century! Some will argue that but they are fools. Count the books, the many TV series and even the star of a movie

Wulfmann

Yes agree with this and the others that it doesn't matter. Bismarck was irreparably damaged. Even if peace was declared and she was towed back to Germany. Greatest of the 20th century? Perhaps, why must there be one "greatest" anyway? Poor ol' Tirpitz forgotten and lonely up in Norway.

[Highbury]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

That episode ranks the Bismarck as the greatest warship of the 20th century! Some will argue that but they are fools. Count the books, the many TV series and even the star of a movie

Well then count me a fool......

Lets see, 1 voyage... battered to hell then scuttled (which is still a British victory). Then all the notoriety you speak of is focused either on it being sunk first time out, or the irrelevant controversy of how it was sunk. The one true "claim-to-fame" was some decidedly good gunnery while engaging HMS Hood (although magazine penetration takes luck, even if you are trying for it.) One of the most famous, certainly.. the greatest... um... no.

[Wulfmann]

H, Hood was the most famous ship up to May 24 1941. The last documentary done on her was titled "Sunk by the Bismarck" Sums up the argument!!!

The Bismarck in a sense went behind enemy lines and fought the only center ring championship fight of WWII..

It was not the Dorsetshire that knocked out the main gunnery control position on Bismarck. Dory joined the fight after it started. It was HMS Norfolk that hit Bismarck killing Albrecht Schneider credited with destroying HMS Hood and Norfolk also in Dec 1943 knocked out Scharnhorst's main radar as well. Lightning striking twice but good crews have a way of making things look lucky.

Tirpitz, the Lonely Queen of the North, was her title.
She did much to help tie down allied units and part of that was the Bismarck perception fear.
A large carrier and 2 modern battleships were always on hand for the in case break out.
Likewise the allies tied down German units in Norway with the trumped up invasion never intended to take place

But, Bismarck was not a she but a he as her captain insisted and most choose to honor that fine man's request.

Wulfmann

[Punisher_sa]

Originally Posted by Type XXIII

Granted, after the steering was damaged by the improbable torpedo hit, the Bismarck was most likely going down sooner or later.

Still, the Bismarck would have dealt out alot more punishment on its way down, had it not been for the 8" shells of the HMS Dorsetshire that destoyed the forward control post, thus effectly preventing the forward main battery from firing.

What I'm trying to say is that it was not only luck from the British side that sunk the Bismarck, it was also suboptimal armor layout.

I was nowhere near that ship i promise i was at home fitting some cool new shoes i stole from some russian soldier, that is my story and i am sticking to that till the day i die