They call SH3 realistic?

SubChief · 10-12-05, 07:26 PM

I thought when running SH3 at 100% realism it would be as real as it gets, but this is far from true.

One of the worst aspects is the torpedo firing system, at 100% in SH3 the captain needs to calculate the torpedo solutions himself. On the real german uboats during the war this was mainly done by the IWO, the first weapon officer. But sometimes it was done by the captain during submerged attacks. So in this sim its actually more realistic to use the weapon officer assistance than to have it disabled.

And the hydrophones dont give you an estimate of an escort's position. Only short range, but not how short which could be done in the real war by listening to escorts propeller noise. If enemy propeller noise is present at all in SH3 its very weak, which is not realistic at all. This information was vital to avoid depth charges.

The convoys consists mostly of british and american ships, even before 1941...way too many americans compared to the real convoys. Several nations were involved, but the 3 most important were Britain, Norway and Holland. Britain lost some 3 mill. tons of shipping in convoys during the war, Norway some 2 mill. and the Dutch 1,5. And not to forget...thousands of sailors with them. In my opinion the developers simply did a bad research job here, they could easily add some norwegian and dutch flags to the ships to make it more realistic, and not forget many of the sailors who gave their lives for the allied victory.

When it comes to the gameplay i noticed a lot of strange convoy behaviour. I attacked a convoy and sank a tanker, and the convoy broke up and headed in all directions, it looked like total panic. A coastal merchant turned 90 degrees into the convoy and collided with a C3 and went under. In the war convoys sometimes broke up when attacked, but not the way simulated in SH3.

However, i was very impressed by the game's graphics, the sea motion is fantastic. I almost felt like i was back at sea again, as an old uboat man i am

10-12-05, 07:33 PM

Three words for ya....Get A MOD!

benetofski · 10-12-05, 10:15 PM

Quote:

However, i was very impressed by the game's graphics

... at least you found something that you liked!

Cpt Haddock · 10-13-05, 02:05 AM

Great first post there SubChief, welcome aboard

Kalach · 10-13-05, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubChief

One of the worst aspects is the torpedo firing system, at 100% in SH3 the captain needs to calculate the torpedo solutions himself. On the real german uboats during the war this was mainly done by the IWO, the first weapon officer. But sometimes it was done by the captain during submerged attacks. So in this sim its actually more realistic to use the weapon officer assistance than to have it disabled.

I have to agree with that

Why should I lose 'realism %' because I don't want to be two people at once?

After using RUb and Commander I find it 'real enough' to pass. Maybe when SH9 comes out and we get sprayed with cold sea water these complaints will stop

Twelvefield · 10-13-05, 02:54 AM

A long time ago, in a previous thread, we more or less came to the same conclusions you did:

1) The game developers' sense of realism is a bit different from "real" realism. From what I recall, we figured that 85-90% game realism was about equal to 100% realism for a real u-boat, while playing the game at 100% realism was maybe 120% of reality, if you can imagine that. On the one hand, it may represent the developers' lack of knowledge of English idiom, while on the other hand, in a much more practical sense, the amount of reality you choose is directly related to the percentage of the full score you get for doing things in the game.

2) As for the hydrophones, and their officer, the equipment you get out of the game box is, in my opinion, sub-par. The same goes for the mapping tools. The good news is that game mods go a long way to fixing these issues.

3) The same issue above is also related to convoys. The ones that come with the vanilla game seem like mere placeholders compared to convoys you can get from mods. Some of the ship behavior issues, however, are hard-coded into the game, and can't be changed without the public release of the Software Developer's Kit (SDK).

4) Lastly, the graphics are definitely sweet, but they are immeasurably improved by -- you guessed it -- more mods.

If you like research, there's plenty of good threads advising you on individual mods, and which websites are the best to downlaod them for free. If you prefer to dive into things, I would suggest downloading Beery's Real U-Boat (RUB) mod, which is a compilation of many fine game mods. You can go through the RUB read-me file to see which mods do exactly what in the file, to help you research which mods you may or may not want. Also very good is Beery's SH3Commander, which is a stand-alone program that will enhance the career of your u-boat crew, and which allows you to make some basic tweaks to the game engine.

Lastly, do not install a mod without a copy of JSGME, which is an excellent mod-management utility for installing and de-installing your mods!!

CWorth · 10-13-05, 07:18 AM

I have to admit...the stock game out of box is not one of the best "subsims" to ever come out.A very sub-par game.
The game itself is nothing more than an arcade shoot em up in the stock campaign even on the hardest settings.

Then the mods started to roll out turning this into one of the best subsims out there.

The two mods I can recommend that really help the game is the RUB mod(Real Uboat) and the SH3Commander.Both these mods combined really add to the game and make it that much more fun.And are also the 2 most popular and most used mods for good reason.

As for mods to change the looks that will come down to personal preferences..there are hundreds of mods for the textures in game.Though Pascals Mod pack put together by Gammel is a great start.

For the skins on the Uboats I personally recommend Fubars Type VII and Type IX skins.As well as Sikkboys U2518 skin for the XXI.For the Type II's Seans Hi-Res skins are perfect.Though many others do exist and are all great these are just my recommendations.

ReM · 10-13-05, 07:29 AM

Subchief
Although SHIII is called a submarine simulator, it is still after all is said and done: a game.......

Ula Jolly · 10-13-05, 07:43 AM

As for Norwegian shipping being hit hard, and that there's a lack of portraying this in SH, I completely agree! I would live to see more ship types, and especially fishing boats WITHOUT engines, the kind that was used most heavily on the Norwegian coast. I think it would be GREAT to surface, and accidentially ram a fishing boat like that! It wouldn't cause much loss of hull integrity, either!

SubChief · 10-14-05, 07:33 AM

Thank you for the welcome aboard, i see i got the position as a bilge rat...you really start on the very bottom here

I expect that most of you sailors knows what the bilge of a uboat is...

Well i didnt mean to spoil anyones fun when i bashed SH3 a little, what i wrote in my first post is just my opinion when it comes to realism, was refering to the original game without any mods. I agree that the procentage of realism more indicates the level of difficulty. Its very hard to survive and to be a successful captain with 100% settings in SH3, much harder than it was for the real captains. A realism of 120% is a good way to put it, so no need to worry for those of you who runs the game with 40-60%, its still hard enough...and you actually got a chance to complete 16 patrols without finding your grave at the bottom of the Atlantic.

Thanks for reminding me about the mods, i'll check them out.

About convoy shipping, below is a link to a site you might find interesting. It describes every convoy of WWII with all the ships and nationality, the names of the crewmembers and of those who fell victim to enemy attacks. Also the uboats involved in each sinking. Its based on the norwegian merchant fleet, but there is information about every ship in the convoys.

http://www.warsailors.com/freefleet/index.html

Beery · 10-14-05, 09:48 AM

The standard game's 'realism' settings are really difficulty settings. As someone else here said, 85-90% is true realism in this game.

If you want a more realistic experience, use the Real U-boat mod.

oRGy · 10-14-05, 09:53 AM

Mods help make the game more realistic in the technical aspect. However, realism is a contested term that is heavily promoted by those with a technocratic bent and I don't really like it. Most importantly, it focuses minds in a quite narrow area.

For example, is it realistic or historical that there are no air raids on German ports over the course of the war? Historically, entire port cities were laid waste to by the RAF, but you see none of this. Or what about the interaction with the crew? Ingame, they have the qualities of very simple robots, not human beings. Or what about life on shore? Is it realistic that this experience is reduced to awarding medals in an office? And what about the nature of the Nazi regime that you are, afer all, fighting for?

Rhetorical questions, obviously - but you see, when you follow the line of realism through, you end up in a political position - which is something a lot of people who advocate "realism" would be uncomfortable with. Most prefer a game to pedagogic experience.

And the thing is, all those examples are, from a technical point of view, quite easy to implement.

(Ahem)

Anyway - that's my bit of sociological ranting over with for the day! My apologies. I'll get back to work now.

Wolfram · 10-14-05, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubChief

Thank you for the welcome aboard, i see i got the position as a bilge rat...you really start on the very bottom here...

we all started that way mate!

Welcome aboard mister...

don1reed · 10-14-05, 11:00 AM

...point of order SubChief...

1WO does not stand for 1st Weapons Officer

It stands for 1st Watch Officer.

Welcome aboard

captainclasp · 10-14-05, 11:28 AM

Excellent points all - especially the difficulty level vs realism level.

As for convoy AI, this has been one of the largest issues I have seen with unmodded 1.4 - hit a target and the rest of the merchies just swing back and forth (constant helming) for roughly 30 minutes after the last "hit" or sub sighting. After that period of time they resume their straight as an arrow course... I have not been blessed to see a convoy "scatter" as described - not that it couldnt happen - just havent seen it myself. Is there a mod that increases or allows more reasonable convoy action after attacks?

Early in the war its too easy to sneak into a convoy and hit the first ships in line - then do a quick circle to avoid the incoming DD run and get two more shots off at the ships second or third in line - all because they simply helm back and forth, maintaining the same base course! I hope this isnt too hardcoded in to make mods ineffective on the issue. Anyone know?

Also - just to be clear - I just have looked for mods here on subsim dl section - obviously there are more being mentioned - any 1 stop shopping area for those? Thanks to all!

Good Hunting.
CC

10-12-05, 07:26 PM	#1
SubChief Watch Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 28 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	They call SH3 realistic? I thought when running SH3 at 100% realism it would be as real as it gets, but this is far from true. One of the worst aspects is the torpedo firing system, at 100% in SH3 the captain needs to calculate the torpedo solutions himself. On the real german uboats during the war this was mainly done by the IWO, the first weapon officer. But sometimes it was done by the captain during submerged attacks. So in this sim its actually more realistic to use the weapon officer assistance than to have it disabled. And the hydrophones dont give you an estimate of an escort's position. Only short range, but not how short which could be done in the real war by listening to escorts propeller noise. If enemy propeller noise is present at all in SH3 its very weak, which is not realistic at all. This information was vital to avoid depth charges. The convoys consists mostly of british and american ships, even before 1941...way too many americans compared to the real convoys. Several nations were involved, but the 3 most important were Britain, Norway and Holland. Britain lost some 3 mill. tons of shipping in convoys during the war, Norway some 2 mill. and the Dutch 1,5. And not to forget...thousands of sailors with them. In my opinion the developers simply did a bad research job here, they could easily add some norwegian and dutch flags to the ships to make it more realistic, and not forget many of the sailors who gave their lives for the allied victory. When it comes to the gameplay i noticed a lot of strange convoy behaviour. I attacked a convoy and sank a tanker, and the convoy broke up and headed in all directions, it looked like total panic. A coastal merchant turned 90 degrees into the convoy and collided with a C3 and went under. In the war convoys sometimes broke up when attacked, but not the way simulated in SH3. However, i was very impressed by the game's graphics, the sea motion is fantastic. I almost felt like i was back at sea again, as an old uboat man i am

10-13-05, 07:29 AM	#8
ReM Commodore Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Brewsky, Galore Posts: 618 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Subchief Although SHIII is called a submarine simulator, it is still after all is said and done: a game....... __________________ Daddy cool

10-13-05, 07:43 AM	#9
Ula Jolly Samurai Navy Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Norway Posts: 567 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	As for Norwegian shipping being hit hard, and that there's a lack of portraying this in SH, I completely agree! I would live to see more ship types, and especially fishing boats WITHOUT engines, the kind that was used most heavily on the Norwegian coast. I think it would be GREAT to surface, and accidentially ram a fishing boat like that! It wouldn't cause much loss of hull integrity, either! __________________ I shall punish yee, landlubber! C'mere for spankings and popsicles!

10-14-05, 09:48 AM	#11
Beery Admiral Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA (but still a Yorkshireman at heart - tha can allus tell a Yorkshireman...) Posts: 2,497 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The standard game's 'realism' settings are really difficulty settings. As someone else here said, 85-90% is true realism in this game. If you want a more realistic experience, use the Real U-boat mod. __________________ "More mysterious. Yeah. I'll just try to think, 'Where the hell's the whiskey?'" - Bob Harris, Lost in Translation. "Anyrooad up, ah'll si thi" - Missen.

10-14-05, 11:00 AM	#14
don1reed Ace of the Deep Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Valhalla: Silent Generation Posts: 1,149 Downloads: 910 Uploads: 0	...point of order SubChief... 1WO does not stand for 1st Weapons Officer It stands for 1st Watch Officer. Welcome aboard __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~ George Orwell

10-12-05, 07:33 PM	#2
SubSerpent Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Three words for ya....Get A MOD!

10-13-05, 02:05 AM	#4
Cpt Haddock Swabbie Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Jersey, Channel Islands Posts: 14 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Great first post there SubChief, welcome aboard

10-13-05, 02:54 AM	#6
Twelvefield Planesman Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 186 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	A long time ago, in a previous thread, we more or less came to the same conclusions you did: 1) The game developers' sense of realism is a bit different from "real" realism. From what I recall, we figured that 85-90% game realism was about equal to 100% realism for a real u-boat, while playing the game at 100% realism was maybe 120% of reality, if you can imagine that. On the one hand, it may represent the developers' lack of knowledge of English idiom, while on the other hand, in a much more practical sense, the amount of reality you choose is directly related to the percentage of the full score you get for doing things in the game. 2) As for the hydrophones, and their officer, the equipment you get out of the game box is, in my opinion, sub-par. The same goes for the mapping tools. The good news is that game mods go a long way to fixing these issues. 3) The same issue above is also related to convoys. The ones that come with the vanilla game seem like mere placeholders compared to convoys you can get from mods. Some of the ship behavior issues, however, are hard-coded into the game, and can't be changed without the public release of the Software Developer's Kit (SDK). 4) Lastly, the graphics are definitely sweet, but they are immeasurably improved by -- you guessed it -- more mods. If you like research, there's plenty of good threads advising you on individual mods, and which websites are the best to downlaod them for free. If you prefer to dive into things, I would suggest downloading Beery's Real U-Boat (RUB) mod, which is a compilation of many fine game mods. You can go through the RUB read-me file to see which mods do exactly what in the file, to help you research which mods you may or may not want. Also very good is Beery's SH3Commander, which is a stand-alone program that will enhance the career of your u-boat crew, and which allows you to make some basic tweaks to the game engine. Lastly, do not install a mod without a copy of JSGME, which is an excellent mod-management utility for installing and de-installing your mods!!

10-13-05, 07:18 AM	#7
CWorth Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gettysburg PA Posts: 845 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	I have to admit...the stock game out of box is not one of the best "subsims" to ever come out.A very sub-par game. The game itself is nothing more than an arcade shoot em up in the stock campaign even on the hardest settings. Then the mods started to roll out turning this into one of the best subsims out there. The two mods I can recommend that really help the game is the RUB mod(Real Uboat) and the SH3Commander.Both these mods combined really add to the game and make it that much more fun.And are also the 2 most popular and most used mods for good reason. As for mods to change the looks that will come down to personal preferences..there are hundreds of mods for the textures in game.Though Pascals Mod pack put together by Gammel is a great start. For the skins on the Uboats I personally recommend Fubars Type VII and Type IX skins.As well as Sikkboys U2518 skin for the XXI.For the Type II's Seans Hi-Res skins are perfect.Though many others do exist and are all great these are just my recommendations.

10-14-05, 07:33 AM	#10
SubChief Watch Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 28 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Thank you for the welcome aboard, i see i got the position as a bilge rat...you really start on the very bottom here I expect that most of you sailors knows what the bilge of a uboat is... Well i didnt mean to spoil anyones fun when i bashed SH3 a little, what i wrote in my first post is just my opinion when it comes to realism, was refering to the original game without any mods. I agree that the procentage of realism more indicates the level of difficulty. Its very hard to survive and to be a successful captain with 100% settings in SH3, much harder than it was for the real captains. A realism of 120% is a good way to put it, so no need to worry for those of you who runs the game with 40-60%, its still hard enough...and you actually got a chance to complete 16 patrols without finding your grave at the bottom of the Atlantic. Thanks for reminding me about the mods, i'll check them out. About convoy shipping, below is a link to a site you might find interesting. It describes every convoy of WWII with all the ships and nationality, the names of the crewmembers and of those who fell victim to enemy attacks. Also the uboats involved in each sinking. Its based on the norwegian merchant fleet, but there is information about every ship in the convoys. http://www.warsailors.com/freefleet/index.html

10-14-05, 09:53 AM	#12
oRGy Crusty Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 648 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Mods help make the game more realistic in the technical aspect. However, realism is a contested term that is heavily promoted by those with a technocratic bent and I don't really like it. Most importantly, it focuses minds in a quite narrow area. For example, is it realistic or historical that there are no air raids on German ports over the course of the war? Historically, entire port cities were laid waste to by the RAF, but you see none of this. Or what about the interaction with the crew? Ingame, they have the qualities of very simple robots, not human beings. Or what about life on shore? Is it realistic that this experience is reduced to awarding medals in an office? And what about the nature of the Nazi regime that you are, afer all, fighting for? Rhetorical questions, obviously - but you see, when you follow the line of realism through, you end up in a political position - which is something a lot of people who advocate "realism" would be uncomfortable with. Most prefer a game to pedagogic experience. And the thing is, all those examples are, from a technical point of view, quite easy to implement. (Ahem) Anyway - that's my bit of sociological ranting over with for the day! My apologies. I'll get back to work now.

10-14-05, 11:28 AM	#15
captainclasp Watch Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 27 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Excellent points all - especially the difficulty level vs realism level. As for convoy AI, this has been one of the largest issues I have seen with unmodded 1.4 - hit a target and the rest of the merchies just swing back and forth (constant helming) for roughly 30 minutes after the last "hit" or sub sighting. After that period of time they resume their straight as an arrow course... I have not been blessed to see a convoy "scatter" as described - not that it couldnt happen - just havent seen it myself. Is there a mod that increases or allows more reasonable convoy action after attacks? Early in the war its too easy to sneak into a convoy and hit the first ships in line - then do a quick circle to avoid the incoming DD run and get two more shots off at the ships second or third in line - all because they simply helm back and forth, maintaining the same base course! I hope this isnt too hardcoded in to make mods ineffective on the issue. Anyone know? Also - just to be clear - I just have looked for mods here on subsim dl section - obviously there are more being mentioned - any 1 stop shopping area for those? Thanks to all! Good Hunting. CC