Sinking Greek ships is a goodiegoodie?

[Ula Jolly]

I don't know the story of WWII for Greece and Turkey very well, but how come I get awarded points for sinking Greek ships when Salamis is a port in blue??

[joea]

Obviously you don't, Turkey was neutral for a start. Greece was under Axis occupation and the Italians and Germans used Greek port facilities. Most Greek merchant ships however served the Allied cause (a high percentage were sunk during the war...search "Greek merchants" on this forum I put together a list of Greek ships sunk per year).

I don't understand your confusion, Norway was under German occupation, the Germns used Norwegian ports (which turn blue in the game) yet Norwegian ships are counted as Allied.

[Ula Jolly]

Thanks for clearing up.
There is AFAIK no difference in the game between Norwegian ships on the Norwegian coast and those carrying goods for the Allies. In the real world, Norwegian ships travelling domestic routes would of course not be sunk without a proper reason. There were German officers aboard most vessels, and all vessels that were supposed to trade with occupied countries.
ALL Norwegian vessels in Norway were painted in Norwegian colours and had their names largened*, to avoid attacks. The results were so-and-so. The most important note is that Norwegian vessels in Norway were mostly in small convoys, sometimes guarded. The Allies knew about this.
THAT would be why I am confused.

*
©warsailors.com

[StdDev]

Originally Posted by joea

Obviously you don't, Turkey was neutral for a start. Greece was under Axis occupation and the Italians and Germans used Greek port facilities. Most Greek merchant ships however served the Allied cause (a high percentage were sunk during the war...search "Greek merchants" on this forum I put together a list of Greek ships sunk per year).

I don't understand your confusion, Norway was under German occupation, the Germns used Norwegian ports (which turn blue in the game) yet Norwegian ships are counted as Allied.

... and just to make it more confusing.. the Germans used Greek ships (small coastal type) for the invasion of Crete.
The British Mediteranian fleet (Adm. Cunningham) sunk many of these in their defence of the island.. So some Greek ships were Allied and some were Axis.

[U-104]

Originally Posted by Ula Jolly

AFAIK

What does that mean?

[Deep6]

Originally Posted by U-104

What does that mean?

As Far As I Know

[U-104]

ok.

[joea]

Originally Posted by StdDev

... and just to make it more confusing.. the Germans used Greek ships (small coastal type) for the invasion of Crete.
The British Mediteranian fleet (Adm. Cunningham) sunk many of these in their defence of the island.. So some Greek ships were Allied and some were Axis.

I doubt they had Greek crews however...I imagine it would be rather difficult to persuade Greek sailors to help foreign invaders attack one of the least unoccupied parts of your country. To use the phrase, AFAIK, the Germans would requisition ships for military purposes but man them themselves. I would think this is what happened here, assuming the sailors were not forced to do so.

Otherwise any Greek shipping in local coastal waters between Greek ports would be treated like Ula Jolly explained for Norway. We can't make such distinctions in the game though.

[Ula Jolly]

Aw, crap. I just realized this means I actually spared a C2.

[StdDev]

Originally Posted by joea

I doubt they had Greek crews however...I imagine it would be rather difficult to persuade Greek sailors to help foreign invaders attack one of the least unoccupied parts of your country. To use the phrase, AFAIK, the Germans would requisition ships for military purposes but man them themselves. I would think this is what happened here, assuming the sailors were not forced to do so..

The historical texts that I have read do not say.. or I just plain dont remember that part (age induced CRS?).
I was under the impression that the captains of these ships were indeed the Greek captains that normally ran the ships and that the crews were the normal crews. Keep in mind that these were small coastal ships with a crew of perhaps 2 or 3, the Germans probably convinced the captains and crews to do their bidding at gun point! (although I do not know that this happened.. the Germans might possibly have offered enough money to make the job of transporting troops seem worthwhile).


PS.. did some research..
The ships were called caiques and they were indeed commandeered by the Germans (it does not say if the captain and crew were Greek..) the ships were flying Greek colors though!


Whilst the British forces at sea were enduring relentless attacks from the air, the Germans had captured the airport at Maleme. To reinforce their foothold on Crete, they had organised two flotillas of commandeered Greek caiques and small coastal steamers to transport arms and supplies to their troops on the island. Each vessel carried about 100 German Mountain Troops and a few Italian marines in addition to the equipment aboard. The first of the two convoys which had made its way from Piraeus to Milos, set off on the final seventy mile journey to Crete in the early hours of 21st May.

The slow speed of the heavily laden caiques meant that they would take over seventeen hours to travel the seventy miles to Crete and it was therefore impossible to reach their destination before dark. Allied reconnaissance soon reported them and Cunningham ordered the fleet to destroy it.

At 2330, Admiral Glennie's Force D found the luckless convoy when it was just eighteen miles north of Crete. The flotilla, defended only by Lupo(Italian torpedo boat), was hopelessly outgunned against the cruisers Dido, Orion and Ajax and the destroyers Janus, Kimberley, Hasty and Hereward.

As soon as the searchlights picked out the caiques, Commander Mimbelli (Commander of Lupo) laid a smoke screen to hide his charges and then engaged the British ships with gunfire and torpedoes. Despite his bravery and the fact that Lupo was hit by eighteen 6-inch shells during the next two hours, Commander Mimbelli was unable to prevent the routing of the convoy and only a few of the original twenty five ships in the convoy escaped destruction. Despite waving white sheets, the caiques were blown apart by Glennie's ships and many of their passengers drowned.

Admiral Glennie found the sinking of the Greek caiques unpleasant and in his report on the destruction of the flotilla he later wrote;

'When illuminated they were seen to be crowded with German troops and to be flying Greek colours. The crews, obviously pressed men, were standing on deck waving white flags and it was distasteful having to destroy them'.

It sure seems that the crews at least were Greeks

[joea]

Thanks for the info StdDev, uggh. I can't blame the Greeks for sailing the boats...nor the Brits for sinking them. Blimey, either transport enemy soldiers who want to attack and harm your compatriots and risk getting killed by your allies or refuse and risk yourself and your family.

[StdDev]

Originally Posted by joea

Thanks for the info StdDev, uggh. I can't blame the Greeks for sailing the boats...nor the Brits for sinking them. Blimey, either transport enemy soldiers who want to attack and harm your compatriots and risk getting killed by your allies or refuse and risk yourself and your family.

Just goes to show ya.. "you cant have your caique and eat it too!"

sorry... its genetic...

[Mingus]

Originally Posted by Ula Jolly

I don't know the story of WWII for Greece and Turkey very well....

Turkey has never involved in wwII in no way

[Ula Jolly]

Originally Posted by Mingus

Turkey has never involved in wwII in no way

I knew Turkey was neutral, but when a neighbouring country is at war, then it will have some consequences, however small or big. Also, this was pointed out by joea.