Snorkel fix in RUb 1.44?

[joea]

Glad this issue was resolved. Now about the snorkel...

See how nice modders are!!

[Beery]

I think the snorkel was lumped in with the Ops or IC mod. I'm not sure.

[joea]

No it wasn't actually.

[Beery]

What is it about the snorkel? Actually I haven't got a clue what file the fix is in.

[joea]

I'll get back to you when I get home.

[joea]

here:
data->library->AI_Sensors.dat

[Beery]

Ah. That's the ASW mod that came in in 1.43. What credit is missing? I have CCIP, gouldjg, Jungman, Jace11 and TimeTraveller listed in the credits.

[Jungman]

No. The Snorkel fix he is speaking about is the one I made. It changes the MinHeight of the enemy Visual from zero to 1 meter.

It is in the AI_Sensors.dat file but it was not included in RuB.
It helps hide the snorkel from being the size of a house. In my findings it is the Visual (not Radar) that caused it.

Many people use it, I incorparated it into the latest Sonar fix and the SensorPAK. It does not hide the periscope at close distance. It can be seen within 4km where the bonus detection kicks in. It does not break the gameplay, simply makes the snorkel not so big.

It is not presently being used by RuB 1.43. Did not look at 1.44.

I did alot of testing with planes with radar, and planes with radar removed. It was not the radar, but the Visual size causing the problem. Here is the readme file from the Snorkel Mod.
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SnorkelFix Modlet beta Jungman July 26, 2005

The snorkel fix helps to hide the snorkel better from the enemy AI Visual sensor. It seems to be too big and is easily seen by airplanes in particular from far away and their speed.
They tend to pounce on you while snorkelling without warning.

I changed the AI_Sensors.dat from my SonarDC_20 version since they share the same file. I only made a small change to Visual MinHeight from zero to 1 meter. Place the AI_Senors.dat in DATA/Library folder. No need to start a new patrol or career. The changes take place immediately. Now let me explain some 'facts' about the snorkel.

The values for snorkel depth are mostly wrong. They will expose your Uboat. Too shallow. Run your snorkel just barely high enough to break the waves above the surface to keep your diesel engines on. Big waves are a problem as they were in real life. You will know what I mean in game trying to get the snorkel high enough to work without exposure. There is an entry to change the snorkel height 5m, and 10m for XXI, but I am not messing with that in this pack unless I have to.

Your snorkel should not be seen by airplanes or ships because you are staying below the MinHeight of the enemy Visual sensor by 1 meter. The game sim.cfg or sensor.cfg states that anything beyond half the MaxRange will be twice as hard to detect. Thus if you are 8km away, the max range for enemy visual spotting, your snorkel being under '2 meters' above water will not be seen. However, if you are under 4km to target then it will start to become spotted as the target gets closer. The same goes for the periscope. I do not want to make any more nerf to the enemy Visual sensor because then your snorkel and periscope is cloaked and never seen. This value 1m seems to do the trick.

Now, remember when cruising underwater while snorkelling, you are not invisible to a ship or airplane if they get within about 2km. That is better than the 8km. The area difference is (8/2)^2 = 16x. that is, the fast moving airplane has only 1/16 the chance to spot your snorkel if you follow proper snorkel depth manually. So you are not invincible, and heavy seas will play havok with your snorkel, as it did in real life.

Lastly, it is not the radar picking up snorkel AFAIK, maybe the late war 3 cm radar (after June 1944) may cause problems, I do not know. I have a enemy radar nerf, but it is not part of this Pak unless I see a real need for it. The last 6 months of the war was meant for you to die, and not be easy to survive.

A trick to use while snorkelling is to put your Observation scope up barely above water while cruising (even your Attack scope too facing forward, the other backwards) to detect visually airplanes within 5km (limit of periscope set in Sensors.dat to detect by crew). And remember you do not have radar detector warnings while underwater.

Another thing, you can move faster underwater than you should be allowed in real life (above 3-6 knots snorkel would break off). In game the enemy hydrophones think you are at flank speed and DD will hear you from up to 9 km away and report your position to airplanes for airstrike. So unless you move at the slowest setting, you take a huge risk of a Destroyer picking you up on their hydrophones and next thing you know a dozen airplanes are on top of you -and you never saw it coming. Listen for enemy warships in the area periodically yourself -moving fast under water with snorkel is death in the late war years.

Did I mention the sonar crew many times will not update you on ships far away off using your periscope above water -so remember that while on high TC if using the scopes to look for airplanes.

Have fun playing with your snorkel!
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This is freeware and not to be used for commercial gain without permission from the author, and/or UbiSoft original copyright. You can share and spread the goodness all you wish, but please give credit where due.

[Beery]

It's supposed to be in RUb 1.43. I think CCIP said he was including it in the ASW mod. I'll ask him about it.

[CCIP]

I actually have been a bit out of tune with what Jungman has been doing with the snorkel and sensors, since I haven't touched them after RUb 1.43. Any updates in that regard are definitely appreciated.

[Beery]

The problem, from my standpoint, is that if I simply adopt Jungman's file I'll have no idea what's going in and what would be getting removed that was in my version of the file (if anything). If people were to complain about a change or a feature that went missing (as they naturally do), or if a bug was to result - as it has before (and in that same file if I'm not mistaken), I'd have no idea of what went on. In other words we'd have the exact same situation we're in now in regard to the AI_sensors.dat file - with people asking me to incorporate an addition (or a fix), but with me not being able to implement it unless I do some heavy duty investigation into what values are already changed in the file (a file into which I didn't have any direct input). The possibility exists (at least in my mind) that no one has a clear idea of what changes are already in various versions of the AI_sensors.dat file. I just don't have the same ability to spend time researching differences in files that I had three months ago. This situation makes the potential for bugs a real danger.

I have a big concern before I adopt a change to a file that has been somewhat modified in the past, and this is that I really feel that I need to know what values get changed in the file. If I don't know the info, I don't know the potential for incompatibilities or bugs, and I can't defend the mod. When someone complains about a new feature I absolutely hate saying "that's Jungman's mod, or that's Ops, or that's the IC mod, or that's the ASW mod), it's as much a mystery to me as it is to you." - it seems like passing the buck, and it's something that I've had to say more frequently recently. It makes me feel like I'm stabbing modders in the back when I send people to complain to them about RUb.

The problem with the AI_sensors.dat file in particular is that it has been altered twice before by two different people, and Jungman tends to keep the changes he makes close to his chest (as is his prerogative). That's fine if his mod has no potential conflicts, and it's fine when the mod is a stand-alone mod, but when I'm putting together a large scale mod with hundreds of interlocking components, I can't just say 'send over the file, I'll bung it in'. Without intimate knowledge of the file, that's a recipe for disaster.

If someone can point me to the value that needs changing, I'll gladly make the change and credit Jungman for it. But I'm very afraid to adopt a completely new file for one tiny change when I already have a file that works fairly well. When it's this particular file, I'm doubly cautious, since (if I recall correctly) it's the same file that caused a crash and for which I had to issue a patch for RUb 1.43.

I dunno. Maybe I'm being overly cautious.

[Sturm]

Originally Posted by Beery

If someone can point me to the value that needs changing

As it says in the sensorpak readme above I only made a small change to Visual MinHeight from zero to 1 meter.

You can download RUb1.44 AI_Sensors.dat with Jungman's snorkel fix here http://koti.mbnet.fi/sh3/files/AI_Sensors.7z

[Jungman]

The AI_Sensors.dat file does indeed get alot of modification from several authors. I have several version depending upon what a person wants. Stock game, Ortega Visibility Mod, or RUB are the big three.

The Snorkel fix is very simple way to deal with the large size of the snorkel being seen. It simply is an one value hex edit to the MinHeight of the AI enemy Visual from zero to 1 meter.

It is one of them things you can add to any mod. I placed in the newer versions of SonarDC. You may notice not as many people having problems with the snorkel attracting planes like a dog to the bone. I placed the new info on the fix in the readmes', but not everyone reads them or remembers.

It tends to be a group effort. Even SonarDC in the original took alot of people testing and helping to get it off the ground. I realize that and realy I should include all those that helped design it such as Berry and CCIP and others. So I guess it was not really all mine to dictate.

(Or mine to give away to X1 when others put work into also. I know stupid me for being fooled thinking I was helping to make an official UbiSoft expansion for SH3 to give the game more exposure and leads to more chance of a sequal -it was an honest gesture ).

Anyway, some people have different styles of play and never have a problem with the snorkel. This is a small change that has no side effects at all I ever found (other than fixing the snorkel from being spotted from an airplane 8 km away).

It is a simple change to MinHeight for AI_Sensors.dat from zero to 1 meter. I think everyone should be credited for helping to create the combined efforts that has gone into that particular version of AI_Sensors.dat. Many mods affect it and need to be integrated.

I can understand what a book keeping nightmare it can become. I am running into it making so many custom mods and tweaks for this and that other persons mod or package.

So what does it mean? If you like the snorkel fix, include it. It does not bother. The more the happier, I am flattered . I hope it makes the game more playable. The credits are already there for all who works on it and putting it all together into a funtional package.

I have made custom version of AI_Sensors.dat for some people that includes Snorkel fix, similar to the 'clear water' changes to customized versions of RuB.

It maybe 'one' reason no one is complaining about the snorkel attracting airplanes like honey anymore. Hard to say. many use the custom version of AI_Sensors.dat, many do not.

[joea]

Glad that was settled. Anyway, I downloaded Jungmann's fix and will use it.

[rulle34]

Originally Posted by Sturm

As it says in the sensorpak readme above I only made a small change to Visual MinHeight from zero to 1 meter.

You can download RUb1.44 AI_Sensors.dat with Jungman's snorkel fix here http://koti.mbnet.fi/sh3/files/AI_Sensors.7z

Is there already a new file for 1.44?
I have the snorchelfix for Rub 1.43. Is that the same file cos I can't see that there has been any changes on Ai_sensors in Rub 1.44?

And I can just confirm that Jungmanns snorchelfix works just great!