Escorts or Merchants?

Von Mack · 09-19-05, 09:42 AM

Having only completed 2 patrols so far (both in 1940), I am finding it relatively easy to knock one of the escorts in a convoy before getting to work on the Merchantmen. However, I may have been lucky so far and wondered what the general opinion is of this practise (I find that these early convoys normally have only 3 or 4 escorts and are quite easy prey.........)

Evil Duckie · 09-19-05, 10:25 AM

IMHO it's not historic/realistic. The main focus of the U-boat campaign was sink the supplies that were pouring into England. Escorts don't carry supplies, merchants do. If you have a chance of sinking a warship, go for it, but if you have the choice between a DD and a C2 loaded with supplies, go for the C2.

By sinking the escorts of a convoy, you're wasting torpedos that can be used better.

Anyway, just my 2 cents...

Shadow9216 · 09-19-05, 10:34 AM

I agree that you should go for the cargo. Later in the war, with the failure of conventional tactics, Doenitz ordered the boats to go after the escorts first- the idea was to decimate the protection and then attack a defenseless group of merchants. It didn't work.

FAdmiral · 09-19-05, 10:44 AM

That was because the merchants by that time were armed too
and they could easily outrun a submerged sub....

JIM

Farside · 09-19-05, 12:11 PM

The only exception to the warship/merchant devide is the 'heavies' Cruisers Aircraft Carriers and battleships, i take them first then get the merchies...

KapYoDan · 09-19-05, 01:28 PM

Early in teh war, I will sometimes take out the escort. When they start running several escorts, tehn I will absolutly wait until I am in teh middle of the convoy, let all four tubes go at all available targets, then hit the deep. Reload, reposition, and finish them off (if they are still floating).

Kpt. Lehmann · 09-19-05, 01:53 PM

Even the highest scoring U-Boat aces rarely sunk warships. As mentioned, the emphasis was on merchants.

Example from U-Boat Commander's Handbook 1943 edition when eulogised by Doenitz:

KptLt. Werner Henke sank 166,000 tons of allied shipping. 26 total ships. One cruiser and one destroyer.

OneTinSoldier · 09-19-05, 02:01 PM

Good question and a tough call. It's no submarine picnic, let me tell you! Earlier in the war the escorts aren't so smart and don't have as sophisticated equipment as they do later. But later on it gets pretty tough! They get smarter and have better equipment. Maybe I need to get better at my tactics, but I like to try and take out at least one escort if I can so that I have a 'hole' in their defense to work through. But those escorts don't just sit there and offer themselves up like a sitting duck! At least not later on in the war. When I get closer to a convoy I find that they will increase and vary their speed, and zig-zag, making them quite hard to target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KapYoDan

Early in the war, I will sometimes take out the escort. When they start running several escorts, tehn I will absolutly wait until I am in the middle of the convoy, let all four tubes go at all available targets, then hit the deep. Reload, reposition, and finish them off (if they are still floating).

Nice advice. I am curious, what do you do when you are engaging a convoy and it starts to get into shallower waters. Do you disengage and let the convoy go?

Regards,

OneTinSoldier

FAdmiral · 09-20-05, 12:42 AM

I just got thru taking on a convoy and I first detected it in shallow
water and mid afternoon. I ploted the course and then went on
ahead to catch them in deeper water (130m) and right at dusk.
I nailed 4 ships (2 tankers & 2 big merchants). It was a 16 ship
convoy with 4 escorts (V&W-2 4stackers-Armed Trawler)

JIM---(VIIB from Lorient, Nov. 2, 1940, grid BF13, 2nd Flot.)

PS. In 2 patrols, I've nailed 11 ships in BF13 !!!!!!

OneTinSoldier · 09-20-05, 04:14 AM

Nice FAdmiral! I'll keep BF13 in mind for when I'm done with my 24 hr patrol grid.

I hadn't played SHIII in quite a while and I just started a new RuB 1.43 career. I got a C Class Destroyer, a V&W Destroyer, a C3 Cargo and then a Large Cargo(2 torps in salvo mode, which proved to be necessary) coming to something like 22,000 tons with my Type IIA. It was good fun.

They seemed a little ticked after that Large Cargo, they sent out an Armed Trawler and a Destoyer searching for me after I sent her down. I had to remain submerged for a while before I shook them.

Cheers,

OneTinSoldier

_alphaBeta_ · 09-20-05, 08:32 AM

From a renown point of view - merchants are the way to go. The exception is battleships and cruisers.

Unless you attend to surface, hitting the lead escort is quite annoying. The convoy will begin to zig-zag making shooting solutions annoying. I find it easier to leave the convoy alone and take shots at two ships while they're running a straight course. I usually do this from inside the convoy.

09-20-05, 10:20 AM

concur with above - game rewards you based on tonnage, so go with the merchants

unless... you do like I do and killl off the escorts to surface and use the deck gun to kill the smaller ships, then submerge and continue the attack on the larger ships (in that order - since the little ships sometimes get in the way of the torps)

andy_311 · 09-21-05, 07:08 AM

I would only take out the escorts first if am in very shallow waters where there's no room for manovers or it get's too close me (500m)

FAdmiral · 09-21-05, 10:16 AM

With only 1 eel left, I was searching for a lone merchant in BF13
to deliver it. In 6 days, all I found were 3 big convoys. PASS
But I did send contact messages on all three. I found a C2 on
the way back to Lorient so I got set up for a submerged daytime
shot. As he filled my viewscreen, I dropped the Xmag to make
him smaller, and then noticed a thin smoke trail coming from
behind him. I checked, a C-class DD was heading right for us.
80 meters of water under me but the C has no DCs ! I torped
the C2 and he went dead in the water, stern was slowly going
under. The DD came over for a look but didn't find me at 50m
and going 1 kts towards the stopped C2. The C2 should eventually
sink but I will stick around to make sure. Can't surface & use deck
gun till DD leaves so I saved the game & will resume it later.....

JIM

Later Edit: The DD left to the NW and I deck gunned the C2 till he left too but he went straight down !!

ICBM · 09-21-05, 11:35 AM

Depends; When making my atack I will try to remain undetected until Merchants start blowing up, when I do get detected I will fire at any DD comming between me and the convoy. (desperatly need the convoy as a shield)

Altough my attention is focused on Mercs I will fire 'pop-shots' at DD's when they present me with a un-missable solution.

09-19-05, 09:42 AM	#1
Von Mack Swabbie Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 7 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Escorts or Merchants? Having only completed 2 patrols so far (both in 1940), I am finding it relatively easy to knock one of the escorts in a convoy before getting to work on the Merchantmen. However, I may have been lucky so far and wondered what the general opinion is of this practise (I find that these early convoys normally have only 3 or 4 escorts and are quite easy prey.........)

09-19-05, 10:25 AM	#2
Evil Duckie Watch Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 30 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	IMHO it's not historic/realistic. The main focus of the U-boat campaign was sink the supplies that were pouring into England. Escorts don't carry supplies, merchants do. If you have a chance of sinking a warship, go for it, but if you have the choice between a DD and a C2 loaded with supplies, go for the C2. By sinking the escorts of a convoy, you're wasting torpedos that can be used better. Anyway, just my 2 cents... __________________ Quack!

09-19-05, 10:44 AM	#4
FAdmiral Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 1,079 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	That was because the merchants by that time were armed too and they could easily outrun a submerged sub.... JIM __________________ If you\'re not taking losses, you\'re not doing enough. RAdm. Kelly Turner, USN ********************************** www.fairtax.org

09-19-05, 12:11 PM	#5
Farside Sparky Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 155 Downloads: 65 Uploads: 0	The only exception to the warship/merchant devide is the 'heavies' Cruisers Aircraft Carriers and battleships, i take them first then get the merchies... __________________ Good Hunting! Torpedo Problems? Check out my thread for FAQ\'s and running depths!

09-19-05, 01:53 PM	#7
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 6,993 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	Even the highest scoring U-Boat aces rarely sunk warships. As mentioned, the emphasis was on merchants. Example from U-Boat Commander's Handbook 1943 edition when eulogised by Doenitz: KptLt. Werner Henke sank 166,000 tons of allied shipping. 26 total ships. One cruiser and one destroyer. __________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock

09-19-05, 10:34 AM	#3
Shadow9216 Frogman Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 296 Downloads: 91 Uploads: 0	I agree that you should go for the cargo. Later in the war, with the failure of conventional tactics, Doenitz ordered the boats to go after the escorts first- the idea was to decimate the protection and then attack a defenseless group of merchants. It didn't work.

09-19-05, 01:28 PM	#6
KapYoDan Bilge Rat Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Early in teh war, I will sometimes take out the escort. When they start running several escorts, tehn I will absolutly wait until I am in teh middle of the convoy, let all four tubes go at all available targets, then hit the deep. Reload, reposition, and finish them off (if they are still floating).

09-20-05, 12:42 AM	#9
FAdmiral Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 1,079 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	I just got thru taking on a convoy and I first detected it in shallow water and mid afternoon. I ploted the course and then went on ahead to catch them in deeper water (130m) and right at dusk. I nailed 4 ships (2 tankers & 2 big merchants). It was a 16 ship convoy with 4 escorts (V&W-2 4stackers-Armed Trawler) JIM---(VIIB from Lorient, Nov. 2, 1940, grid BF13, 2nd Flot.) PS. In 2 patrols, I've nailed 11 ships in BF13 !!!!!! __________________ If you\'re not taking losses, you\'re not doing enough. RAdm. Kelly Turner, USN ********************************** www.fairtax.org

09-20-05, 04:14 AM	#10
OneTinSoldier Sonar Guy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Denver, CO USA Posts: 382 Downloads: 46 Uploads: 0	Nice FAdmiral! I'll keep BF13 in mind for when I'm done with my 24 hr patrol grid. I hadn't played SHIII in quite a while and I just started a new RuB 1.43 career. I got a C Class Destroyer, a V&W Destroyer, a C3 Cargo and then a Large Cargo(2 torps in salvo mode, which proved to be necessary) coming to something like 22,000 tons with my Type IIA. It was good fun. They seemed a little ticked after that Large Cargo, they sent out an Armed Trawler and a Destoyer searching for me after I sent her down. I had to remain submerged for a while before I shook them. Cheers, OneTinSoldier __________________ "Variable this is EasyRhino, do you copy? Over." Loud and clear EasyRhino. "Do we have a gig? Over." That's a Roger, we have a gig. Target is painted, start the music. "Roger that Variable. Into attack. Pickling target. Target is acquired and lit. LGB comin' down!" EasyRhino, circular error probability zero. Impact with High Order Detonation. Thank You, have a nice day.

09-20-05, 08:32 AM	#11
_alphaBeta_ Medic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: NJ, USA Posts: 163 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	From a renown point of view - merchants are the way to go. The exception is battleships and cruisers. Unless you attend to surface, hitting the lead escort is quite annoying. The convoy will begin to zig-zag making shooting solutions annoying. I find it easier to leave the convoy alone and take shots at two ships while they're running a straight course. I usually do this from inside the convoy. __________________

09-20-05, 10:20 AM	#12
von Buelow Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	concur with above - game rewards you based on tonnage, so go with the merchants unless... you do like I do and killl off the escorts to surface and use the deck gun to kill the smaller ships, then submerge and continue the attack on the larger ships (in that order - since the little ships sometimes get in the way of the torps)

09-21-05, 07:08 AM	#13
andy_311 The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Oldham, Lancs,England Posts: 1,312 Downloads: 82 Uploads: 0	I would only take out the escorts first if am in very shallow waters where there's no room for manovers or it get's too close me (500m)

09-21-05, 10:16 AM	#14
FAdmiral Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 1,079 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	With only 1 eel left, I was searching for a lone merchant in BF13 to deliver it. In 6 days, all I found were 3 big convoys. PASS But I did send contact messages on all three. I found a C2 on the way back to Lorient so I got set up for a submerged daytime shot. As he filled my viewscreen, I dropped the Xmag to make him smaller, and then noticed a thin smoke trail coming from behind him. I checked, a C-class DD was heading right for us. 80 meters of water under me but the C has no DCs ! I torped the C2 and he went dead in the water, stern was slowly going under. The DD came over for a look but didn't find me at 50m and going 1 kts towards the stopped C2. The C2 should eventually sink but I will stick around to make sure. Can't surface & use deck gun till DD leaves so I saved the game & will resume it later..... JIM Later Edit: The DD left to the NW and I deck gunned the C2 till he left too but he went straight down !! __________________ If you\'re not taking losses, you\'re not doing enough. RAdm. Kelly Turner, USN ********************************** www.fairtax.org

09-21-05, 11:35 AM	#15
ICBM Navy Dude Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Holland. Posts: 175 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Depends; When making my atack I will try to remain undetected until Merchants start blowing up, when I do get detected I will fire at any DD comming between me and the convoy. (desperatly need the convoy as a shield) Altough my attention is focused on Mercs I will fire 'pop-shots' at DD's when they present me with a un-missable solution. __________________