Where is that SDK???

Marhkimov · 09-14-05, 11:40 AM

Everyone wants it, yet Ubisoft won't give it... I am simply asking WHY???

Perhaps they don't want people meddling with SH3 and turning it into the ultimate subsim, thereby requiring that once SH4 comes out, we'll all be forced to upgrade? Well, if that is how they think, then they'd be real foolish... Which is why I hope I'm not right...

Anyone else have any thoughts/ideas?

Col7777 · 09-14-05, 11:45 AM

If you remember SH2 when it was released, then think of it after all the mods. There was a lot done to it to make it a lot better, it wasn't perfect but we did have a lot of stuff improved.
If you look at SH3 a lot of that stuff from SH2 they have tried to include, yes a lot they missed out too, but you are right, given a bit more freedom to mod this sim they may have got a good back-bone for SH4.

Marhkimov · 09-14-05, 11:50 AM

Yeah... I'm thinking the more Ubisoft gives us the freedom to modify SH3, the more "ideas" they'll have for SH4. I mean, come on, how could giving us the SDK have a negative impact on them? All we sub-simmers want to do is play!!

Maybe they're afraid of the high standards we'll set???

wussies

CCIP · 09-14-05, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marhkimov

Maybe they're afraid of the high standards we'll set???

wussies

Well... of course! Look at it with a bit of sympathy for the devs - they're just a small, modestly-funded little team going on very tight limits (they don't give you much to develop sims, we all know that). They have a snowball's chance in hell of competing with the mod community as we know it here - no doubt, the level of enthusiasm, creativity and dedication here is easily one of the highest in any game's mod communities. With an SDK, this game would likely be finished and quickly - and by finished I mean not only the core SHIII play, but the capabilities of the engine as a whole.

Net result? Devs can't compete. Devs won't get development money. Devs need to live on something too.

So, I would LOVE an SDK. Love love love. But I darn well know we're not getting it until SHIV at least.

That said, I'll be very pissed and feel screwed-over if there's never either an SHIV or an SDK (or both). :hmm:

FAdmiral · 09-14-05, 04:18 PM

After all the dust settles, its still the bottom line ($$$) that
rules all the future actions.....

JIM

TreverSlyFox · 09-14-05, 05:07 PM

Let me ask a couple of questions here if I may. I'm not a computer language uber so there are a couple things I don't understand.

First, what the H3LL is SDK? I keep seeing it but no one has ever said what SDK is.

Second, there can't be that many computer languages the engine could be written in so why hasn't this thing been cracked by someone here that knows programing. Or am I really showing my ignorance here and they actually did write it in a new language that no one else knows?

Type941 · 09-14-05, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreverSlyFox

Let me ask a couple of questions here if I may. I'm not a computer language uber so there are a couple things I don't understand.

First, what the H3LL is SDK? I keep seeing it but no one has ever said what SDK is.

Second, there can't be that many computer languages the engine could be written in so why hasn't this thing been cracked by someone here that knows programing. Or am I really showing my ignorance here and they actually did write it in a new language that no one else knows?

Software developer's kit is SDK . But I would also expect more people with language knowledge to have a look at this on their own, since I sincerely have doubts about any type of SDK released for the community ever.

CCIP · 09-14-05, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreverSlyFox

First, what the H3LL is SDK? I keep seeing it but no one has ever said what SDK is.

SDK = Software Developer's Kit

A set of tools that would allow us access to the game data and/or code. The access to SHIII data is presently very limited and requires a lot of hard work and plain guessing on the part of the modders, since none of the tools the developers used for making the game (besides the mission editor) are available to us.
The game code is not only closed, but protected, which brings me to...

Quote:

Second, there can't be that many computer languages the engine could be written in so why hasn't this thing been cracked by someone here that knows programing. Or am I really showing my ignorance here and they actually did write it in a new language that no one else knows?

Cracked or not, doesn't matter, because the game code is protected by Starforce. The game will NOT start if the code is altered.

It may be theoretically (and maybe even practically) crack Starforce, but this would be illegal on all terms. We're modders, not pirates :hmm:

kiwi_2005 · 09-15-05, 03:05 AM

I hope SH4 doesn't come out for at least another 5 yrs from now, cos i reckon by then i'll probably be tired of SH3 and will start wishing for 4 to come along. Why are we wishing for SH4 to come out so soon when we got SH3. Whats gonna happen when SH4 comes out? Were be wishing SH5 is coming out.

Imagine in a couple of yrs from now there be so many mods for this game and if were lucky the SDK would be out meaning more super modding or a USA Sub Campaign even.

I aint wishing for SH4, I got SH3 therefore i dont need it

gdogghenrikson · 09-15-05, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

I hope SH4 doesn't come out for at least another 5 yrs from now, cos i reckon by then i'll probably be tired of SH3 and will start wishing for 4 to come along. Why are we wishing for SH4 to come out so soon when we got SH3. Whats gonna happen when SH4 comes out? Were be wishing SH5 is coming out.

Imagine in a couple of yrs from now there be so many mods for this game and if were lucky the SDK would be out meaning more super modding or a USA Sub Campaign even.

I aint wishing for SH4, I got SH3 therefore i dont need it

I totally agree!

benetofski · 09-18-05, 02:37 PM

From the posts I've read over the last few months and what has been said in this thread, UBISOFT still consider this product's life cycle as 'not yet over' therefore it is still generating revenue for them (CASH COW) and their marketing Company.

We are simply the lower levels of the 'gaming pecking order' and while it was deemed ok for them to solicit our great ideas and comments in the beginning (obtained from various forums) as a replacement for SH2 (which - correct me if I'm wrong - UBISOFT didnt even write!) they promptly created a game (albeit a good game!) that they knew had a captive audience and then went ahead and secured all the modifiable features by STARFORCE so that they would have total marketing control!

As far as an SDK is concerned - forget it -the tight-asses that control UBISOFT will never PERMIT the users to modify or improve their basic game - IT IS LOCKED TIGHT - <EDIT>

The best approach (subsimmers) for the future is NOT TO BUY SH4, and NOT TO VOLUNTEER OR SUBMIT IDEAS IN FORUMS solicited by UBISOFT (for example 'What would you like to see in SH4') come on! - are you that stupid that you want to help them exploit us further?

Ask them outright do they plan to offera SDK to the community! - if they edge around the subject post a warning in the forum along these lines

"UBISOFT PLAN TO LOCK NEW GAMES AND RESTRICT COMMUNITY MOD IMPROVEMENTS BY NOT OFFERING AN SDK" that should get their attention....!

UBISOFT have raped and pillaged the SUBSIM community for ideas and feedback and now (have you noticed?) have gone VERY QUIET!

Microsoft an the other hand openly offer a SDK to their FS series - so what's the big deal UBISOFT?????

Will I buy another UBISOFT product - NO!
Will I buy another SF Protected Product - NO!

John Channing · 09-18-05, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benetofski

From the posts I've read over the last few months and what has been said in this thread, UBISOFT still consider this product's life cycle as 'not yet over' therefore it is still generating revenue for them (CASH COW) and their marketing Company.

We are simply the lower levels of the 'gaming pecking order' and while it was deemed ok for them to solicit our great ideas and comments in the beginning (obtained from various forums) as a replacement for SH2 (which - correct me if I'm wrong - UBISOFT didnt even write!) they promptly created a game (albeit a good game!) that they knew had a captive audience and then went ahead and secured all the modifiable features by STARFORCE so that they would have total marketing control!

As far as an SDK is concerned - forget it -the tight-asses that control UBISOFT will never PERMIT the users to modify or improve their basic game - IT IS LOCKED TIGHT - <EDIT>

The best approach (subsimmers) for the future is NOT TO BUY SH4, and NOT TO VOLUNTEER OR SUBMIT IDEAS IN FORUMS solicited by UBISOFT (for example 'What would you like to see in SH4') come on! - are you that stupid that you want to help them exploit us further?

Ask them outright do they plan to offera SDK to the community! - if they edge around the subject post a warning in the forum along these lines

"UBISOFT PLAN TO LOCK NEW GAMES AND RESTRICT COMMUNITY MOD IMPROVEMENTS BY NOT OFFERING AN SDK" that should get their attention....!

UBISOFT have raped and pillaged the SUBSIM community for ideas and feedback and now (have you noticed?) have gone VERY QUIET!

Microsoft an the other hand openly offer a SDK to their FS series - so what's the big deal UBISOFT?????

Will I buy another UBISOFT product - NO!
Will I buy another SF Protected Product - NO!

A couple of comments about not only the substance, but also the tone of your post.

First the tone.

We don't flame anyone here... individuals, groups or especially developers.

Why especially? Because they are the lifeblood of our hobby. If UbiSoft had not decided to invest hundreds of thousands of their shareholder's dollars into the 3 year development cycle that lead to SH3 then there would be no SH 3... period. No other developer is willing to invest the money that UbiSoft has to develop one. Not EA, not MS.. no one.

Now Neal has spent a lot of time and money to make this the type if site that developers can come to to solicit input from their customer base and feel welome while they do it. When I look around at some of the Flight-sim boards and see how developers are treated it makes me sick. I guess that some people really believe that they can increase their own sense of self worth by denigrating others.

Now before you start typing understand that this isn't kissing their asses... it is simply enlightened self interest. If we have a method of getting input into the simulations that are the heart and soul of or hobby why would we toss that opportunity away with childish rants and absurd hyperbole.

Anyway agree or not.. that's not going to happen here. Not on my watch.

Now on to the substance.

UbiSoft is a for profit compny that has a responsibility to their shareholders to make a return on investment. As I already stated they have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into SH3 so why shouldn't they make a healthy profit on it? Personally I hope they make millions because that would drive them to put out even more simulations of this type, and that is good for me. Get it? Enlightened self interest again.

You seem to have some problem with developers soliciting feedback from their customers. This has me scatching my head. Firstly, as far as I know, no one from Ubisoft showed up at anyone's door and beat the snot out of them demanding ideas for SH3. People offered their siuggestions up of their own accord in the hopes of creating a better simulation. And it worked.

Secondly would you rather that they developed SH3 entirely in isolation without any concern about their customers. If so then I hope you haven't played the dynamic campaign because that feature is in there entirely due to the feedback from their customers... a lot of it from this very site.

Item 2 on my list is your mistaken notion that Starforce has something to do with modifications. It doesn't. If you are going to indulge youself in accusations please at least be accurate about them.

Next we come to your suggestion about the use of hacking tools. One more instance of that and you will have to find another board to post on, becasue this one will no longer be available to you.

So, in conclusion, if you feel that a developer has raped and pillaged you because they sought your input into the core product of your hobby, perhaps another hobby might be in order.

And no more name calling, flaming or hacking advise. Perhaps a few minutes with the FAQ might be a worthwhile investment of time.

JCC

gdogghenrikson · 09-18-05, 04:58 PM

[quote="benetofski"]The best approach (subsimmers) for the future is NOT TO BUY SH4, and NOT TO VOLUNTEER OR SUBMIT IDEAS IN FORUMS solicited by UBISOFT (for example 'What would you like to see in SH4') come on! - are you that stupid that you want to help them exploit us further?

Ask them outright do they plan to offera SDK to the community! - if they edge around the subject post a warning in the forum along these lines

"UBISOFT PLAN TO LOCK NEW GAMES AND RESTRICT COMMUNITY MOD IMPROVEMENTS BY NOT OFFERING AN SDK" that should get their attention....!

UBISOFT have raped and pillaged the SUBSIM community for ideas and feedback and now (have you noticed?) have gone VERY QUIET!

I totally agree

martes86 · 09-18-05, 05:11 PM

What do you prefer? SDK or new naval games for years and years?
SDKs are usually released when there's an intention of the game lasting a long time with lots of improvements and modifications. This may also mean no new commercial sequels until the graphics engine is practically obsolete. Why to make new games when everything is being made on the old one?
On the other hand, no SDKs are released when new games are being planned. It would be a waste of time and money working on something that may be finished by modders even before the new game is out.

I would be happy if a SDK was released, but I don't spend all the time whining about it.

gdogghenrikson · 09-18-05, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martes86

What do you prefer? SDK or new naval games for years and years?

It's not that I dont want new naval games, sh4 is coming out next year...and Sh3 is only like 5 monthes old

09-14-05, 11:40 AM	#1
Marhkimov Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California, USA Posts: 2,377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Where is that SDK??? Everyone wants it, yet Ubisoft won't give it... I am simply asking WHY??? Perhaps they don't want people meddling with SH3 and turning it into the ultimate subsim, thereby requiring that once SH4 comes out, we'll all be forced to upgrade? Well, if that is how they think, then they'd be real foolish... Which is why I hope I'm not right... Anyone else have any thoughts/ideas? __________________ It takes two to tango

09-14-05, 11:45 AM	#2
Col7777 Grey Wolf Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 944 Downloads: 260 Uploads: 0	If you remember SH2 when it was released, then think of it after all the mods. There was a lot done to it to make it a lot better, it wasn't perfect but we did have a lot of stuff improved. If you look at SH3 a lot of that stuff from SH2 they have tried to include, yes a lot they missed out too, but you are right, given a bit more freedom to mod this sim they may have got a good back-bone for SH4. __________________ Silent and Violent

09-14-05, 11:50 AM	#3
Marhkimov Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California, USA Posts: 2,377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yeah... I'm thinking the more Ubisoft gives us the freedom to modify SH3, the more "ideas" they'll have for SH4. I mean, come on, how could giving us the SDK have a negative impact on them? All we sub-simmers want to do is play!! Maybe they're afraid of the high standards we'll set??? wussies __________________ It takes two to tango

09-14-05, 04:18 PM	#5
FAdmiral Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 1,079 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	After all the dust settles, its still the bottom line ($$$) that rules all the future actions..... JIM __________________ If you\'re not taking losses, you\'re not doing enough. RAdm. Kelly Turner, USN ********************************** www.fairtax.org

09-14-05, 05:07 PM	#6
TreverSlyFox Bosun Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 65 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Let me ask a couple of questions here if I may. I'm not a computer language uber so there are a couple things I don't understand. First, what the H3LL is SDK? I keep seeing it but no one has ever said what SDK is. Second, there can't be that many computer languages the engine could be written in so why hasn't this thing been cracked by someone here that knows programing. Or am I really showing my ignorance here and they actually did write it in a new language that no one else knows? __________________ Be polite, be courtious, be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

09-15-05, 03:05 AM	#9
kiwi_2005 Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2004 Location: Aeoteroa Posts: 7,382 Downloads: 223 Uploads: 1	I hope SH4 doesn't come out for at least another 5 yrs from now, cos i reckon by then i'll probably be tired of SH3 and will start wishing for 4 to come along. Why are we wishing for SH4 to come out so soon when we got SH3. Whats gonna happen when SH4 comes out? Were be wishing SH5 is coming out. Imagine in a couple of yrs from now there be so many mods for this game and if were lucky the SDK would be out meaning more super modding or a USA Sub Campaign even. I aint wishing for SH4, I got SH3 therefore i dont need it __________________ RIP kiwi_2005 Those who can't laugh at themselves leave the job to others.

09-18-05, 02:37 PM	#11
benetofski Helmsman Join Date: May 2005 Location: Port Perry, Canada Posts: 106 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	UBISOFT From the posts I've read over the last few months and what has been said in this thread, UBISOFT still consider this product's life cycle as 'not yet over' therefore it is still generating revenue for them (CASH COW) and their marketing Company. We are simply the lower levels of the 'gaming pecking order' and while it was deemed ok for them to solicit our great ideas and comments in the beginning (obtained from various forums) as a replacement for SH2 (which - correct me if I'm wrong - UBISOFT didnt even write!) they promptly created a game (albeit a good game!) that they knew had a captive audience and then went ahead and secured all the modifiable features by STARFORCE so that they would have total marketing control! As far as an SDK is concerned - forget it -the tight-asses that control UBISOFT will never PERMIT the users to modify or improve their basic game - IT IS LOCKED TIGHT - <EDIT> The best approach (subsimmers) for the future is NOT TO BUY SH4, and NOT TO VOLUNTEER OR SUBMIT IDEAS IN FORUMS solicited by UBISOFT (for example 'What would you like to see in SH4') come on! - are you that stupid that you want to help them exploit us further? Ask them outright do they plan to offera SDK to the community! - if they edge around the subject post a warning in the forum along these lines "UBISOFT PLAN TO LOCK NEW GAMES AND RESTRICT COMMUNITY MOD IMPROVEMENTS BY NOT OFFERING AN SDK" that should get their attention....! UBISOFT have raped and pillaged the SUBSIM community for ideas and feedback and now (have you noticed?) have gone VERY QUIET! Microsoft an the other hand openly offer a SDK to their FS series - so what's the big deal UBISOFT????? Will I buy another UBISOFT product - NO! Will I buy another SF Protected Product - NO! __________________ OLt.z.S.Benetschik (Benetofski) [IMG][/IMG] \"U-bootwaffe - eine Gemeinschaft zusammengebracht durch Schicksal\"

09-18-05, 04:58 PM	#13
gdogghenrikson Grey Wolf Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 978 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Re: UBISOFT [quote="benetofski"]The best approach (subsimmers) for the future is NOT TO BUY SH4, and NOT TO VOLUNTEER OR SUBMIT IDEAS IN FORUMS solicited by UBISOFT (for example 'What would you like to see in SH4') come on! - are you that stupid that you want to help them exploit us further? Ask them outright do they plan to offera SDK to the community! - if they edge around the subject post a warning in the forum along these lines "UBISOFT PLAN TO LOCK NEW GAMES AND RESTRICT COMMUNITY MOD IMPROVEMENTS BY NOT OFFERING AN SDK" that should get their attention....! UBISOFT have raped and pillaged the SUBSIM community for ideas and feedback and now (have you noticed?) have gone VERY QUIET! I totally agree __________________ And when you loose control, you'll reap the harvest you have sown.

09-18-05, 05:11 PM	#14
martes86 Grey Wolf Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Colourful Seville - Spain Posts: 971 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	What do you prefer? SDK or new naval games for years and years? SDKs are usually released when there's an intention of the game lasting a long time with lots of improvements and modifications. This may also mean no new commercial sequels until the graphics engine is practically obsolete. Why to make new games when everything is being made on the old one? On the other hand, no SDKs are released when new games are being planned. It would be a waste of time and money working on something that may be finished by modders even before the new game is out. I would be happy if a SDK was released, but I don't spend all the time whining about it.