ESM?

stormrider_sp · 09-21-05, 04:33 PM

I thought that my ESM mast could detect radar sources ranging more than 60nm sometimes, but its not detecting anything farther than 15nm... Is it right??

Kapitan · 09-21-05, 04:37 PM

depends on what depth and what sub

LuftWolf · 09-21-05, 04:40 PM

The detection range of the ESM mast is determined primarily by the height of the radar array and the ESM mast.

That is to say, there has to be an uninterrupted straight line between the ESM mast and the emanating radar mast and if the ocean gets in the way due to the curvature of the earth, then the radar signals won't get to the ESM mast so no ESM detection.

Have you confirmed that it is limited to 15nm for radar-equipped aircraft as well?

stormrider_sp · 09-21-05, 05:49 PM

I just confirmed that it is due to direct ilumination, yeah. Probably aircraft and helos can detect farther. I conclued this by removing the "earth curvature" parameter from its database. Anyway, 15nm are 27km. I remember from school, the horizon was something like 80km away or 43nm??? Than it is still wrong!

LuftWolf · 09-21-05, 05:52 PM

The ocean is not a perfect sphere... seastate will heavily impact detection ranges, all those waves add up to increased height (deceased detection range) over what would be predicted on a perfect sphere.

In sea state five, your submarine radar will pick up next to nothing, because the waves are almost as high or higher than the radar mast!

OKO · 09-21-05, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormrider_sp

I just confirmed that it is due to direct ilumination, yeah. Probably aircraft and helos can detect farther. I conclued this by removing the "earth curvature" parameter from its database. Anyway, 15nm are 27km. I remember from school, the horizon was something like 80km away or 43nm??? Than it is still wrong!

I don't remember the real value, but this should be around your 15 miles.
At sea (real sea) I can't see anything further, even with illimited visibility and binocular on a very good weather.
And I'm supposed to have a good view (12/10 and 14/10 2 years ago)

Rip · 09-21-05, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormrider_sp

I just confirmed that it is due to direct ilumination, yeah. Probably aircraft and helos can detect farther. I conclued this by removing the "earth curvature" parameter from its database. Anyway, 15nm are 27km. I remember from school, the horizon was something like 80km away or 43nm??? Than it is still wrong!

The distance to the horizon id=s effected by height of eye. So much different at 1 ft than at 10ft.

stormrider_sp · 09-21-05, 10:48 PM

My math is a bit rusty but I got this:

Think as the radial of the earth is 20.000km long
I donÂ´t know the exact height of the Arleigh Burke Surface Radar, but from a picture it is more than the third part of the shipÂ´s lenght and less than half, so, 500ft = 150m long. LetÂ´s imagine that is it 70m height.
Think as the ESM mast height is 0m

We can get the exact point where the horizon is by doing the following calculation:
(square triangule)

a2 = b2 + c2
400,002,800= 400,000,000 + c2
c2=2,800
c=52.92km or 26nm

is it right??
The farthest flat point in the ocean that an Arleigh Burke can see is 26nm far. So, it can for sure see a 1m mast at 26nm away, and vice versa.

stormrider_sp · 09-21-05, 10:59 PM

One more thing, I checked the database to verify an information provided by Fas.org, that the Arleigh Burke is also equipped with TASM missiles in its VLS and found out that there wasnÂ´t no TASM in there.

Can anyone confirm that the Arleigh Burke is equipped with a mix of TASM/TLAM?

LuftWolf · 09-21-05, 11:02 PM

The TASM are being removed from all American vessels, as far as I know.

Often, intelligence sites will NOT update their information to reflect retired weapons and other systems on otherwise fully active and up-to-date platforms, and I really don't know why. :hmm:

SeaQueen · 09-21-05, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

The TASM are being removed from all American vessels, as far as I know.

Often, intelligence sites will NOT update their information to reflect retired weapons and other systems on otherwise fully active and up-to-date platforms, and I really don't know why. :hmm:

They WERE removed. They've been gone since the 90s.

stormrider_sp · 09-21-05, 11:18 PM

why?
was it bad??
can harpoon be stored in the VLS???

LuftWolf · 09-21-05, 11:34 PM

I think they were removing it based on the expectation that the next generation Anti-Ship Missile would be in service soon, but that program got cancelled.

I'm not really to sure about the rest of the details, but I do know that our ASM missile program is much lower priority for our Navy than the Russians, who have invested heavily in ASM missile technology as a means to try to offset the other dissadvantages of their Navy and to give them a solid export product.

stormrider_sp · 09-22-05, 12:28 AM

yeah, like the oscar. but the us is investing some big numbers on the Ohio SSGN upgrade. I wonder if they will equip it with TASMs.

One more thing, I was testing my Ohio a few minutes ago, and I discovered that it is IMPOSSIBLE to hit an Arleigh Burke using sub launched ASM.

Is it right?!
I mean, I launched TASMs from all of the VLS and the 4 Torpedo Tubes all at once, and none of them hit the Destroyer.

LuftWolf · 09-22-05, 12:42 AM

Did it shoot them down, or did they miss? If they simply missed, then that is an aiming or enable point issue as they are generally able to home on targets when fired accurately and enabled properly.

However, in practical terms the TASM is not terribly effective. Russian ships routinely shoot down whole flights of them, and their CIWS systems are not as sophisticated as the AEGIS system of the AB DDG.

The Russian ASM missiles are modelled as being much better (more difficult to intercept) in the game, especially some of the supersonic missiles.

09-21-05, 04:33 PM	#1
stormrider_sp Planesman Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 186 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	ESM? I thought that my ESM mast could detect radar sources ranging more than 60nm sometimes, but its not detecting anything farther than 15nm... Is it right??

09-21-05, 04:37 PM	#2
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,132 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	depends on what depth and what sub __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

09-21-05, 04:40 PM	#3
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	The detection range of the ESM mast is determined primarily by the height of the radar array and the ESM mast. That is to say, there has to be an uninterrupted straight line between the ESM mast and the emanating radar mast and if the ocean gets in the way due to the curvature of the earth, then the radar signals won't get to the ESM mast so no ESM detection. Have you confirmed that it is limited to 15nm for radar-equipped aircraft as well? __________________ LW

09-21-05, 05:52 PM	#5
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	The ocean is not a perfect sphere... seastate will heavily impact detection ranges, all those waves add up to increased height (deceased detection range) over what would be predicted on a perfect sphere. In sea state five, your submarine radar will pick up next to nothing, because the waves are almost as high or higher than the radar mast! __________________ LW

09-21-05, 11:02 PM	#10
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	The TASM are being removed from all American vessels, as far as I know. Often, intelligence sites will NOT update their information to reflect retired weapons and other systems on otherwise fully active and up-to-date platforms, and I really don't know why. :hmm: __________________ LW

09-21-05, 05:49 PM	#4
stormrider_sp Planesman Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 186 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	I just confirmed that it is due to direct ilumination, yeah. Probably aircraft and helos can detect farther. I conclued this by removing the "earth curvature" parameter from its database. Anyway, 15nm are 27km. I remember from school, the horizon was something like 80km away or 43nm??? Than it is still wrong!

09-21-05, 10:48 PM	#8
stormrider_sp Planesman Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 186 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	My math is a bit rusty but I got this: Think as the radial of the earth is 20.000km long I donÂ´t know the exact height of the Arleigh Burke Surface Radar, but from a picture it is more than the third part of the shipÂ´s lenght and less than half, so, 500ft = 150m long. LetÂ´s imagine that is it 70m height. Think as the ESM mast height is 0m We can get the exact point where the horizon is by doing the following calculation: (square triangule) a2 = b2 + c2 400,002,800= 400,000,000 + c2 c2=2,800 c=52.92km or 26nm is it right?? The farthest flat point in the ocean that an Arleigh Burke can see is 26nm far. So, it can for sure see a 1m mast at 26nm away, and vice versa.

09-21-05, 10:59 PM	#9
stormrider_sp Planesman Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 186 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	One more thing, I checked the database to verify an information provided by Fas.org, that the Arleigh Burke is also equipped with TASM missiles in its VLS and found out that there wasnÂ´t no TASM in there. Can anyone confirm that the Arleigh Burke is equipped with a mix of TASM/TLAM?

09-21-05, 11:18 PM	#12
stormrider_sp Planesman Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 186 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	why? was it bad?? can harpoon be stored in the VLS???

09-21-05, 11:34 PM	#13
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I think they were removing it based on the expectation that the next generation Anti-Ship Missile would be in service soon, but that program got cancelled. I'm not really to sure about the rest of the details, but I do know that our ASM missile program is much lower priority for our Navy than the Russians, who have invested heavily in ASM missile technology as a means to try to offset the other dissadvantages of their Navy and to give them a solid export product. __________________ LW

09-22-05, 12:28 AM	#14
stormrider_sp Planesman Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 186 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	yeah, like the oscar. but the us is investing some big numbers on the Ohio SSGN upgrade. I wonder if they will equip it with TASMs. One more thing, I was testing my Ohio a few minutes ago, and I discovered that it is IMPOSSIBLE to hit an Arleigh Burke using sub launched ASM. Is it right?! I mean, I launched TASMs from all of the VLS and the 4 Torpedo Tubes all at once, and none of them hit the Destroyer.

09-22-05, 12:42 AM	#15
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Did it shoot them down, or did they miss? If they simply missed, then that is an aiming or enable point issue as they are generally able to home on targets when fired accurately and enabled properly. However, in practical terms the TASM is not terribly effective. Russian ships routinely shoot down whole flights of them, and their CIWS systems are not as sophisticated as the AEGIS system of the AB DDG. The Russian ASM missiles are modelled as being much better (more difficult to intercept) in the game, especially some of the supersonic missiles. __________________ LW