Greek Merchant Marine in WWII and RuB

[joea]

Ok, sorry the other thread got a bit emotional. I went and dug up some facts.

Let us state the problem, people who use RuB are surprised if they sink Greek merchant ships and are penalised as if they sunk an Axis ship after April 1941, when Greece was invaded and occupied. This in spite of the fact Norwegian and Dutch ships are treated as Allied after those two countries are occupied. Yugoslavia is also treated as Axis like Greece, but in that case, some Yugoslav republics like Croatia were in fact full Axis partners...I don't knwo how much shipping they had in WWII and if it is in the game anyway.

First of all some information about the Greek merchant marine in WWII, the official site of the Hellenic Chamber of Shipping
http://www.nee.gr/htm/history.htm

Please note this

The Chamber convened its first general assembly on March 18, 1937... At that time, the Greek merchant fleet numbered 599 steamers aggregating 1.8 million gt, and 714 sailing ships of 55.5 thousand gt.
... The Greek shipping suffered heavy casualties from the war. As a result of attacks of German submarines to innocent merchant ships, more than 2,000 national seafarers lost their lives and about 2,500 became invalid for life from injuries. The war cost the fleet two thirds of its strength. Thus, when the war ended, the Greek merchant fleet numbered only 154 ships totalling 532,000 gt.

Putting aside the "innocent" quote, as Greek ships in convoys were certainly helping the Allied cause, shows the Greek merchant marine did not seem to benefit from any protection.

Next site...a staff member at the University college of Cork wrote on this pages on history...for WWIII using his main source the Oxford Companion to the Second World War (1995) by R. Clogg

Here:
http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/maced...elmodww2e.html

MERCHANT MARINE

At the outbreak of war the substantial Greek Merchant Marine consisted of 557 ships, totalling 1,837,315 tons.

Of these 334 were sunk through Axis action, 32 were seized by the Axis powers, and 63 were lost for other reasons. Total tonnage lost amounted to 1,346,502, 71% of the total.

Two thousand seamen lost their lives and a further 2,500 were wounded, losses which had a disproportionate impact on the relatively small number of Aegean islands from which crews were recruited.

A slight disagreement with the first site...557 as opposed to 599, perhaps between 1937 and 1940 some ships were sold, scrapped, lost in storms etc.


U-boat net, a trustworthy site used by both sides in the RuB deck gun debate , lists 118 ships sunk (520.069 tons) and 4 ships damaged (18.569 tons) by u-boats alone. If you look here

http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/search.php

and enter "Greek" in the search form without time or place you get the full list. All sunk throught the war, I see a considerable in 42 and 43...and many in convoy. the map shows them all sunk in the N. and S. Atlantic, a few in the Indian, and a handful near Egypt. Of course none near Greece, but other than fishing boats or the odd ferry (not many were running, I did my Masters in the Greek Civil War as catalyst for the Cold War and know about the occupation) there was hardly substiantial Greek maritime traffic in Greek waters. The occupation was so harsh I doubt that ships sunk in the North Atlantic would inflame the situation more than it was.

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/maced...elmodww2a.html

From the outset of the occupation Greece was systematically plundered of its economic resources, principally foodstuffs and raw materials, which were shipped off to Germany. The requisitioning of food led to immediate shortages....The economy was shattered: food was in short supply; disease was rife and the distribution of relief was made additionally difficult by the disruption of communications.

Last URL,

http://members.tripod.com/~merchants...entribute.html

It states, as in all the sea histories I've read, that Greek merchant sailors were considered part of the Allied forces.

Other European countries like Poland, Greece and Norway, which came under German occupation, or Asian nations like the Philippines which was overrun by Japan, were also participants.

Therefore, making Greek ships count as Axis in the game doesn't make sense. It would mean BdU disapproved if their commanders sunk Greek ships. The stats above show that is not the case, or that BdU didn't care. Why only Greece and not the Netherlands or Norway?

Really I say again, Norway is counted as allied, they were under occupation, and had local traffic on the coast (fishing boats and passenger ships, all watched I assume) and Greece was in the same situation. If not worse. U-boats did not patrol the fjords nor the Greek islands. Yet you have us virtual commanders get postive renown for sinking Norwegian ships elsewhere, and negative for sinking Greek...given the destruction of most of the Grek merchant marine, someone in Berlin would have been rather behind the ball to let this go on.

If you all recall there was clear warning in mid 1941 to avoid attacking US ships if possible, has anybody in the RuB team Beery or others found specific orders to avoid targeting Greek ships? Does the game have Greek ships as coastal traffic near Greece post mid-1941 and could we change them to another flag?

Thank you for your time and please read and consider the links I posted.