Why does RuB make the Greeks part of the Axis?

Iceberg · 09-03-05, 09:52 PM

I just sunk a Greek cargo in my career just to get the bad surprise that it was an Axis ship!! Were the Greeks really part of the Axis in WWII?

I started looking around and when I compared the stock DefSide.cfg file with the one from RuB 1.43 I discovered that from 1941-04-23 until the end of the war, the Greeks are part of the Axis!

From the looks of it, it seems to come from the Ops Mod inside RuB with a description of change being pretty much: too many to list.

And since with RuB you don't have a blue icon on the map to warn you that the ship is part of the Axis, a note in the readme file would have been really nice about the change of allegiance.

Anyways, for the RuB users who didn't know: be cautious with the Greeks!

SH3 is so much better with RuB (except maybe the fatigue thing which I changed back

)and I thank everybody who worked on it. I just wish I had been warned about that!

Now I gonna go through the whole file and see if anybody else has decided to switch sides!!

Cheers,

Iceberg

Beery · 09-03-05, 11:36 PM

From April 1941 to November 1944 Greece was occupied by Germany. Although, as an occupied power it was technically not part of the Axis, it would not have been a good idea for German U-boats to sink Greek ships after April 1941 - bad for propaganda, creates a breeding ground for partisans, etc.

I'll see if I can do something about making it more obvious who is friend or foe for the next RUb version.

Iceberg · 09-03-05, 11:47 PM

Thanks Beery. I thought it might have been for that reason but then I was wondering why Norwegian ships were still considered to be with the allies?

Maybe they fled to England before the invasion?

Anyways, I've looked at the file and noted the few differences. I shouldn't get caught sinking the wrong ship anymore.

Iceberg

Iceberg · 09-04-05, 12:34 AM

OK I checked the file again and I think I may have found a bug/typo.

These are the definition of allegiance:
; side 0 - neutral
; side 1 - allies
; side 2 - axis

And the following are the entry for Greece.
It goes from Neutral to Allies to Axis to Axis (again)
Shouldn't the last one be Allies? (after november '44)

[SideEntry 44]
Country=Greece
Side=0
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19401027

[SideEntry 45]
Country=Greece
Side=1
StartDate=19401028
EndDate=19410422

[SideEntry 46]
Country=Greece
Side=2
StartDate=19410423
EndDate=19441101

[SideEntry 47]
Country=Greece
Side=2
StartDate=19441102
EndDate=19451231

Iceberg

Beery · 09-04-05, 12:46 AM

Yes it should. I expect that error crept in with the Ops mod. I just checked it out myself a few minutes ago and changed it for RUb 1.44. I also added the info to the en/de_help.txt files. I wish I had more time to check out all this stuff, as I'm sure I could find more of these niggly-naggly (but important) details that need adjusting. If you find any more please let me know.

Iceberg · 09-04-05, 12:54 AM

You would have to postpone the release of 1.44 in order to check everything.

I'm sure there are a bunch of guys in Romania that are smiling right now and know exactly how it feels!!

If I find anything else I'll be sure to let you know.

Iceberg

joea · 09-04-05, 02:59 AM

Was this official BdU policy to not sink Greek ships? What were your sources? Sorry I am a bit sceptical what about Dutch, Norwegian Danish ships were they also off limits?

U-Schultz · 09-04-05, 08:00 AM

"Was this official BdU policy to not sink Greek ships?"

I'm going to guess it depends on the location of the Greek ship? In greek waters or near England?

I go to U-boat.net all the time and peruse the daily sinkings/activities page. I don't have the numbers but the sinking of Greek ships by u-boats is mentioned all the time. Guess I should use the "location of sinking" feature more.

Beery · 09-04-05, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

Was this official BdU policy to not sink Greek ships? What were your sources? Sorry I am a bit sceptical what about Dutch, Norwegian Danish ships were they also off limits?

I very much doubt that even the Nazis would be stupid enough to sink ships that were under their country's protection.

AG124 · 09-04-05, 08:52 AM

About Norwegan ships - I have heard that the vast majority of the Norwegan merchant fleet (along with a couple of old destroyers and submarines) escaped to the UK and continued to serve the Allied cause, so it would make sense for them to still be Allied after their nation's occupation.

joea · 09-04-05, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beery

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

Was this official BdU policy to not sink Greek ships? What were your sources? Sorry I am a bit sceptical what about Dutch, Norwegian Danish ships were they also off limits?

I very much doubt that even the Nazis would be stupid enough to sink ships that were under their country's protection.

"Protection?" Well, call it that or occupation...and yes I know that the situation veried in the various countries. I still want to find proof. I'll get back to you all.

Happy Times · 09-04-05, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AG124

About Norwegan ships - I have heard that the vast majority of the Norwegan merchant fleet (along with a couple of old destroyers and submarines) escaped to the UK and continued to serve the Allied cause, so it would make sense for them to still be Allied after their nation's occupation.

Right,and if you havet hem in a convoy they are fair game.It should be fixed that you get negative renown for sinking them

Beery · 09-04-05, 09:44 AM

I just checked Norway. It's correct. Neutral until Spring 1940, then Allied for the rest of the war.

Beery · 09-04-05, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

"Protection?" Well, call it that or occupation...

Well, after a country is occupied, the occupying country looks at that country as under the protection of the occupier. Take modern day Iraq for example: the American Navy doesn't go around sinking every Iraqi ship it comes across - that would be very stupid indeed.

jaxa · 09-04-05, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beery

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

"Protection?" Well, call it that or occupation...

Well, after a country is occupied, the occupying country looks at that country as under the protection of the occupier. Take modern day Iraq for example: the American Navy doesn't go around sinking every Iraqi ship it comes across - that would be very stupid indeed.

Beery, I'm not agree with you. How can you tell that occupied country is under protection of the occupier? During IIWW Poland was under German occupation, many of Poles died in KLs and in public executions. Is this "protection"? It was brutal invasion and extermination. Greece wasn't under "protection" of Germany, it was occupation.

09-03-05, 09:52 PM	#1
Iceberg Bosun Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 68 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Why does RuB make the Greeks part of the Axis? I just sunk a Greek cargo in my career just to get the bad surprise that it was an Axis ship!! Were the Greeks really part of the Axis in WWII? I started looking around and when I compared the stock DefSide.cfg file with the one from RuB 1.43 I discovered that from 1941-04-23 until the end of the war, the Greeks are part of the Axis! From the looks of it, it seems to come from the Ops Mod inside RuB with a description of change being pretty much: too many to list. And since with RuB you don't have a blue icon on the map to warn you that the ship is part of the Axis, a note in the readme file would have been really nice about the change of allegiance. Anyways, for the RuB users who didn't know: be cautious with the Greeks! SH3 is so much better with RuB (except maybe the fatigue thing which I changed back )and I thank everybody who worked on it. I just wish I had been warned about that! Now I gonna go through the whole file and see if anybody else has decided to switch sides!! Cheers, Iceberg

09-03-05, 11:36 PM	#2
Beery Admiral Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA (but still a Yorkshireman at heart - tha can allus tell a Yorkshireman...) Posts: 2,497 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	From April 1941 to November 1944 Greece was occupied by Germany. Although, as an occupied power it was technically not part of the Axis, it would not have been a good idea for German U-boats to sink Greek ships after April 1941 - bad for propaganda, creates a breeding ground for partisans, etc. I'll see if I can do something about making it more obvious who is friend or foe for the next RUb version. __________________ "More mysterious. Yeah. I'll just try to think, 'Where the hell's the whiskey?'" - Bob Harris, Lost in Translation. "Anyrooad up, ah'll si thi" - Missen.

09-04-05, 12:46 AM	#5
Beery Admiral Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA (but still a Yorkshireman at heart - tha can allus tell a Yorkshireman...) Posts: 2,497 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yes it should. I expect that error crept in with the Ops mod. I just checked it out myself a few minutes ago and changed it for RUb 1.44. I also added the info to the en/de_help.txt files. I wish I had more time to check out all this stuff, as I'm sure I could find more of these niggly-naggly (but important) details that need adjusting. If you find any more please let me know. __________________ "More mysterious. Yeah. I'll just try to think, 'Where the hell's the whiskey?'" - Bob Harris, Lost in Translation. "Anyrooad up, ah'll si thi" - Missen.

09-04-05, 09:44 AM	#13
Beery Admiral Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA (but still a Yorkshireman at heart - tha can allus tell a Yorkshireman...) Posts: 2,497 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I just checked Norway. It's correct. Neutral until Spring 1940, then Allied for the rest of the war. __________________ "More mysterious. Yeah. I'll just try to think, 'Where the hell's the whiskey?'" - Bob Harris, Lost in Translation. "Anyrooad up, ah'll si thi" - Missen.

09-03-05, 11:47 PM	#3
Iceberg Bosun Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 68 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Thanks Beery. I thought it might have been for that reason but then I was wondering why Norwegian ships were still considered to be with the allies? Maybe they fled to England before the invasion? Anyways, I've looked at the file and noted the few differences. I shouldn't get caught sinking the wrong ship anymore. Iceberg

09-04-05, 12:34 AM	#4
Iceberg Bosun Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 68 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	OK I checked the file again and I think I may have found a bug/typo. These are the definition of allegiance: ; side 0 - neutral ; side 1 - allies ; side 2 - axis And the following are the entry for Greece. It goes from Neutral to Allies to Axis to Axis (again) Shouldn't the last one be Allies? (after november '44) [SideEntry 44] Country=Greece Side=0 StartDate=19380101 EndDate=19401027 [SideEntry 45] Country=Greece Side=1 StartDate=19401028 EndDate=19410422 [SideEntry 46] Country=Greece Side=2 StartDate=19410423 EndDate=19441101 [SideEntry 47] Country=Greece Side=2 StartDate=19441102 EndDate=19451231 Iceberg

09-04-05, 12:54 AM	#6
Iceberg Bosun Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 68 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	You would have to postpone the release of 1.44 in order to check everything. I'm sure there are a bunch of guys in Romania that are smiling right now and know exactly how it feels!! If I find anything else I'll be sure to let you know. Iceberg

09-04-05, 02:59 AM	#7
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Was this official BdU policy to not sink Greek ships? What were your sources? Sorry I am a bit sceptical what about Dutch, Norwegian Danish ships were they also off limits?

09-04-05, 08:00 AM	#8
U-Schultz Medic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North Atlantic Posts: 162 Downloads: 73 Uploads: 0	"Was this official BdU policy to not sink Greek ships?" I'm going to guess it depends on the location of the Greek ship? In greek waters or near England? I go to U-boat.net all the time and peruse the daily sinkings/activities page. I don't have the numbers but the sinking of Greek ships by u-boats is mentioned all the time. Guess I should use the "location of sinking" feature more.

09-04-05, 08:52 AM	#10
AG124 Sea Lord Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 1,878 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	About Norwegan ships - I have heard that the vast majority of the Norwegan merchant fleet (along with a couple of old destroyers and submarines) escaped to the UK and continued to serve the Allied cause, so it would make sense for them to still be Allied after their nation's occupation.