Is marginal ice flow noise modeled in DW or SC?

MarkShot · 08-21-05, 02:46 AM

I have been rereading a copy of Tom Clancy's "Submarine". I suspect I had bought it long before SC was released (copyright 1993) and before I knew that there were any form of games that allowed for 3D maneuvers beyond flight sims ...

In it, he speaks about "boomer bastions" and how some likely ones are situated near marginal ice flows (thin ice in flux). He indicates that the flow noise makes passive sonar tracking much more difficult.

I know SC/DW model sea state noise. I was curious if part of the "under ice" modeling incorporates this form of ice flow noise?

Thanks.

Kapitan · 08-21-05, 07:13 AM

it does to a point sea state 5 under ice and it does mask some noise i can tell you that

Takeda Shingen · 08-21-05, 08:03 AM

Sea state 5 masks sound anywhere, not just under ice.

In my experience, grinding or flow noise related to loose ice packs are either not modeled or marginally so.

Kapitan · 08-21-05, 08:21 AM

i think they are modeled but then again i cant tell the diffrence i play under ice 90% of the time so i dont realy know i dont get out of there much

SquidB · 08-22-05, 03:15 PM

I hope that it is modded, as im sure that that it makes a tactical difference. (well it did in Red Storm Rising anyway)

Can someone confirm whether this exsits or not?

Kapitan · 08-22-05, 03:24 PM

it is a major tactical advantage the ice covers noise and makes it harder to detect and yes i think it is modeled in dw and sc

SquidB · 08-22-05, 04:52 PM

Well thats good news Kapitain, Can anyone back this up?

PeriscopeDepth · 08-22-05, 06:04 PM

I recall a USN sonarman who used to frequent the SC board saying that it actually was pretty quiet under the ice.

Kapitan · 08-22-05, 06:43 PM

because british russian and american can filter out back ground noise ie the noise the ice makes

the french can also but its supposidly not very good and chnease well forget them the only ice they see is from thier freezers

Amizaur · 08-22-05, 07:11 PM

I think it's rather quite under ice-cap (I mean thick ice in one piece), the noise is under cover of crushed ice fragments that tear and crush each other all the time with wave action :-)

Kapitan · 08-22-05, 07:20 PM

the ice is constantly moving holes in the ice are big and provide areas to fill up hence why the ice moves

the ice creaks groans moans breaks all the time making noise the ice is never still

Amizaur · 08-22-05, 07:51 PM

but centered around a north pole there is a area covered with thick "solid" ice ? or not ? ice not breaking and crusing but one large piece ? there should be quiet.

Kapitan · 08-23-05, 01:39 AM

no not at all there are holes every where under the ice and yes there are holes in the north pole if it was one big solid chunk of ice no submarine could surface it would be about 15 feet thick even a typhoon would not be able to crack it

a picture from a typhoon at the north pole note the incredibly loose ice

Amizaur · 08-23-05, 08:00 AM

You have to be right then, indeed if the ice was solid there would be not possible to surface at north pole :-)

Kapitan · 08-23-05, 10:53 AM

exactly bill should also know if he went to the n pole on the nautilus he would know

08-21-05, 02:46 AM	#1
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Is marginal ice flow noise modeled in DW or SC? I have been rereading a copy of Tom Clancy's "Submarine". I suspect I had bought it long before SC was released (copyright 1993) and before I knew that there were any form of games that allowed for 3D maneuvers beyond flight sims ... In it, he speaks about "boomer bastions" and how some likely ones are situated near marginal ice flows (thin ice in flux). He indicates that the flow noise makes passive sonar tracking much more difficult. I know SC/DW model sea state noise. I was curious if part of the "under ice" modeling incorporates this form of ice flow noise? Thanks. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

08-21-05, 07:13 AM	#2
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	it does to a point sea state 5 under ice and it does mask some noise i can tell you that __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

08-21-05, 08:21 AM	#4
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	i think they are modeled but then again i cant tell the diffrence i play under ice 90% of the time so i dont realy know i dont get out of there much __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

08-22-05, 03:24 PM	#6
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	it is a major tactical advantage the ice covers noise and makes it harder to detect and yes i think it is modeled in dw and sc __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

08-22-05, 06:43 PM	#9
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	because british russian and american can filter out back ground noise ie the noise the ice makes the french can also but its supposidly not very good and chnease well forget them the only ice they see is from thier freezers __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

08-21-05, 08:03 AM	#3
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Sea state 5 masks sound anywhere, not just under ice. In my experience, grinding or flow noise related to loose ice packs are either not modeled or marginally so.

08-22-05, 03:15 PM	#5
SquidB Officer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Lytham UK Posts: 244 Downloads: 169 Uploads: 0	I hope that it is modded, as im sure that that it makes a tactical difference. (well it did in Red Storm Rising anyway) Can someone confirm whether this exsits or not?

08-22-05, 04:52 PM	#7
SquidB Officer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Lytham UK Posts: 244 Downloads: 169 Uploads: 0	Well thats good news Kapitain, Can anyone back this up?

08-22-05, 06:04 PM	#8
PeriscopeDepth Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,894 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	I recall a USN sonarman who used to frequent the SC board saying that it actually was pretty quiet under the ice.

08-22-05, 07:11 PM	#10
Amizaur Sonar Guy Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Poland Posts: 398 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I think it's rather quite under ice-cap (I mean thick ice in one piece), the noise is under cover of crushed ice fragments that tear and crush each other all the time with wave action :-)

08-22-05, 07:20 PM	#11
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	the ice is constantly moving holes in the ice are big and provide areas to fill up hence why the ice moves the ice creaks groans moans breaks all the time making noise the ice is never still __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

08-22-05, 07:51 PM	#12
Amizaur Sonar Guy Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Poland Posts: 398 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	but centered around a north pole there is a area covered with thick "solid" ice ? or not ? ice not breaking and crusing but one large piece ? there should be quiet.

08-23-05, 01:39 AM	#13
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	no not at all there are holes every where under the ice and yes there are holes in the north pole if it was one big solid chunk of ice no submarine could surface it would be about 15 feet thick even a typhoon would not be able to crack it a picture from a typhoon at the north pole note the incredibly loose ice __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

08-23-05, 08:00 AM	#14
Amizaur Sonar Guy Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Poland Posts: 398 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	You have to be right then, indeed if the ice was solid there would be not possible to surface at north pole :-)

08-23-05, 10:53 AM	#15
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	exactly bill should also know if he went to the n pole on the nautilus he would know __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/