Torpedo detonator switch is not realistic

Cpt.Nautilus · 08-04-05, 02:56 PM

In SH3, on the TDC, there is a switch allowing you to change the torpedo detonator in a single click. However this seems to be grossly unrealistic. Here is what I found in Doenitz's memoirs (chapter 7, p.88, translated by R.H. Stevens):

Quote:

The change-over of the pistols was always a task accompanied by much wearisome and often quite impracticable re-loading of torpedoes.

Above, p.86, he tells he issued the following order, during the Norwegian campaign:

Quote:

In Zone O and further north, load three torpedoes with settins A (impact) and one torpedo with magnetic firing setting.

So, it seems that to change this setting, you need to unload and reload the torpedo. Could it be modded into SH3?

Ula Jolly · 08-04-05, 03:02 PM

Another box to check or uncheck at the difficulty-setting, definitely.

Nopileo · 08-04-05, 03:09 PM

I also miss the ability to program torpedoes seperately in SH3 - especially when lining up for a convoy attack - so I guess this is related.

On another note, I got quite desperate last night. For some reason I couldn't reload 2 of the 6 front tubes on my XXI. It turned out that the torpedo hatches were open. As soon as I closed them using 'W' I could reload. So at least this is simulated...

HEMISENT · 08-04-05, 04:22 PM

The thing that bugs me about the torpedoes is at impact setting it requires almost an exact 90 degree hit. Any kind of angle and the fish bounces off.
Often wondered if there is a way to expand or increase the angle to allow detonation.

Ula Jolly · 08-04-05, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HEMISENT

The thing that bugs me about the torpedoes is at impact setting it requires almost an exact 90 degree hit. Any kind of angle and the fish bounces off.
Often wondered if there is a way to expand or increase the angle to allow detonation.

Amen.

Nopileo · 08-04-05, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HEMISENT

The thing that bugs me about the torpedoes is at impact setting it requires almost an exact 90 degree hit. Any kind of angle and the fish bounces off.

I'm in 1944 now, and I've been pleasantly surprised sometimes of how wide the angle can be of impact torpedoes. Not too wide, but maybe like 20 degrees. So maybe this is adjustable somewhere, and can be edited? Because if I remember correctly these would bounce off earlier in the war.

BUT, I've noticed that if I line up the torpedo to hit at exactly 90 degrees - and hit straight on on a moving target - it bounces off. I think I've read somewhere that this was realistic as well...? It had to have a few degrees off-angle to detonate?

Stymnus · 08-04-05, 05:36 PM

Apparantly early in the war there were complaints that hitting exactly 90 degrees (amazing as it sounds) would cause the pistol not to trigger, so there may be something to that. But I'd think it would be cleared up by later in the war.

Ula Jolly · 08-04-05, 06:06 PM

If the torpedo is set to trigger when the whiskers are pushed sufficiently, then the defect might not be so amazing after all. While I don't know a thing about how the eel is really triggered, I can imagine a 90 deg hit will ensure that the whiskers aren't pushed hard enough.

Stymnus · 08-04-05, 06:23 PM

You want to see a frustrated man? Read the BdU Diaries of Admiral Donitz at http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB.htm, especially the first months of the war. The torpedo problem was a very annoying and in many cases dangerous one...some of the premature detonations damaged subs, and may have even been responsible for the loss of some boats. it was certainly accounting for much frustration from the crews. They were talking about one commander that fired four torpedos at a ship at dock in a port and all four were duds. It was responsible for a lot more trouble than was necessary in invading Denmark and Norway in March of 1940.

Who knows how the war would have come to pass if they had not had so many technical glitches and an over-controlling dictator running everything?

Nopileo · 08-04-05, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stymnus

Who knows how the war would have come to pass if they had not had so many technical glitches and an over-controlling dictator running everything?

Well then I might not be speaking Norwegian on a daily basis I guess...

Thanks for the info!

Knotical · 08-05-05, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stymnus

They were talking about one commander that fired four torpedos at a ship at dock in a port and all four were duds.

Actually this probably refers to Gunther Priens U-47 attack on the Royal Oak in Scapa Flow. If you read the account of the attack at U-boat.net I think he fired at least 6 torpedoes with absolutely no effect. The first salvo of 3 were all duds except 1 that exploded against an anchor chain! The he fired 3 more a few minutes later with no results either. Its actually quite amusing they were able to get away with this (on the surface too!). But another problem I think they had was torpedoes running deeper than they were set to run. Therefore the torps might have been scraping the bottom and got stuck in the mud.

Cpt.Nautilus · 08-05-05, 02:13 AM

Later in the war, during the Norwegian campaing, the same Prien found six transports anchored in a fjord. He was at less than 1000m, with a perfect 90Â° shot. The targets where overlapping. It couldn't be missed. Prien was one of the most successful U-boat commander of the war.

He launched 8 torpedoes in two consecutive attacks. All 8 missed because of faulty detonators or poor depth-keeping. It happened to a lot of U-boat during this campaign. Doenitz says his commanders were demoralized at the end of this campaign.

At his return to base, Prien said to Doenitz that he could "hardly be expected to fight with a dummy rifle".

Catfish · 08-05-05, 02:49 AM

Hello,
changing of the pistols (magnetic/impact) was only possible with the torpedo unloaded.
However this alone was not too complicated as long as the tube had not yet been flooded - you had to open the inner hatch, pull the torpedo out (hanging it to the rail above), and change the pistol rotating the old one out and new one in, and pushing the torpedo into the tube again, closing the hatch. This took around three minutes with a trained crew as far as i heard, certainly more than simply switching.

Mostly the pistol was mounted long before an attack, not being changed again in the last minutes. The weapons officer knew which torpedo used which pistol, so he just adapted the order of firing at several targets to it.

Depth setting was really done in a second via the "Torpedovorhalterechner" (german TDC). But setting the depth proved to be troublesome: The torpedo's depth setting was controlled with an atmospheric tank or chamber inside the torp. filled with more or less pressured air. Measuring and adjusting could only be done comparing the U-boat's interior pressure against the one in the torpedo levelling tank. While this was ok as long as it was done during a surface attack, the boat's interior pressure was subject to changes when submerged. Air vented into the boat, which lead to higher pressure and would ruin a torpedo's depth setting - in the early years.

Torpedo impact pistols did not trigger in the early war as soon as it would not hit a target at roughly 90 degrees, this is modelled correctly. Only after the capturing of the HMS "Seal" the pistols were changed and allowed lower angles of impact.

So it is quite easy: In the early war
1. do not use magnetic pistols,
2. fire from an angle that allows the torpedo to hit at roughly 90 degrees,
3. set the depth to one metre - at least it will not underrun the target.

Knowing this certainly gives you an advantage the U-boat commanders did not have ...

Greetings,
Catfish

SmokinTep · 08-05-05, 07:15 AM

I was reading where the detonaters became active after 90 meters once fired. Seems I should be able to hit someting at 200 meters.

don1reed · 08-05-05, 08:09 AM

...being within 200m of a target when a torpedo detonated could cause the shock wave to damage the sub.

08-04-05, 03:02 PM	#2
Ula Jolly Samurai Navy Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Norway Posts: 567 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Another box to check or uncheck at the difficulty-setting, definitely. __________________ I shall punish yee, landlubber! C'mere for spankings and popsicles!

08-04-05, 04:22 PM	#4
HEMISENT Ace of the Deep Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 1,052 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 0	The thing that bugs me about the torpedoes is at impact setting it requires almost an exact 90 degree hit. Any kind of angle and the fish bounces off. Often wondered if there is a way to expand or increase the angle to allow detonation. __________________ Nuke 'em till they glow!

08-04-05, 05:36 PM	#7
Stymnus A-ganger Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wilton, NH Posts: 72 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Well Apparantly early in the war there were complaints that hitting exactly 90 degrees (amazing as it sounds) would cause the pistol not to trigger, so there may be something to that. But I'd think it would be cleared up by later in the war.

08-04-05, 06:06 PM	#8
Ula Jolly Samurai Navy Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Norway Posts: 567 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	If the torpedo is set to trigger when the whiskers are pushed sufficiently, then the defect might not be so amazing after all. While I don't know a thing about how the eel is really triggered, I can imagine a 90 deg hit will ensure that the whiskers aren't pushed hard enough. __________________ I shall punish yee, landlubber! C'mere for spankings and popsicles!

08-04-05, 06:23 PM	#9
Stymnus A-ganger Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wilton, NH Posts: 72 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	asdf You want to see a frustrated man? Read the BdU Diaries of Admiral Donitz at http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB.htm, especially the first months of the war. The torpedo problem was a very annoying and in many cases dangerous one...some of the premature detonations damaged subs, and may have even been responsible for the loss of some boats. it was certainly accounting for much frustration from the crews. They were talking about one commander that fired four torpedos at a ship at dock in a port and all four were duds. It was responsible for a lot more trouble than was necessary in invading Denmark and Norway in March of 1940. Who knows how the war would have come to pass if they had not had so many technical glitches and an over-controlling dictator running everything?

08-04-05, 03:09 PM	#3
Nopileo Watch Officer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Norway Posts: 333 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I also miss the ability to program torpedoes seperately in SH3 - especially when lining up for a convoy attack - so I guess this is related. On another note, I got quite desperate last night. For some reason I couldn't reload 2 of the 6 front tubes on my XXI. It turned out that the torpedo hatches were open. As soon as I closed them using 'W' I could reload. So at least this is simulated...

08-05-05, 02:13 AM	#12
Cpt.Nautilus Watch Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Patrolling Lake Geneva Posts: 29 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	Later in the war, during the Norwegian campaing, the same Prien found six transports anchored in a fjord. He was at less than 1000m, with a perfect 90Â° shot. The targets where overlapping. It couldn't be missed. Prien was one of the most successful U-boat commander of the war. He launched 8 torpedoes in two consecutive attacks. All 8 missed because of faulty detonators or poor depth-keeping. It happened to a lot of U-boat during this campaign. Doenitz says his commanders were demoralized at the end of this campaign. At his return to base, Prien said to Doenitz that he could "hardly be expected to fight with a dummy rifle". __________________ "I sink therefore I am"

08-05-05, 02:49 AM	#13
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,765 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Hello, changing of the pistols (magnetic/impact) was only possible with the torpedo unloaded. However this alone was not too complicated as long as the tube had not yet been flooded - you had to open the inner hatch, pull the torpedo out (hanging it to the rail above), and change the pistol rotating the old one out and new one in, and pushing the torpedo into the tube again, closing the hatch. This took around three minutes with a trained crew as far as i heard, certainly more than simply switching. Mostly the pistol was mounted long before an attack, not being changed again in the last minutes. The weapons officer knew which torpedo used which pistol, so he just adapted the order of firing at several targets to it. Depth setting was really done in a second via the "Torpedovorhalterechner" (german TDC). But setting the depth proved to be troublesome: The torpedo's depth setting was controlled with an atmospheric tank or chamber inside the torp. filled with more or less pressured air. Measuring and adjusting could only be done comparing the U-boat's interior pressure against the one in the torpedo levelling tank. While this was ok as long as it was done during a surface attack, the boat's interior pressure was subject to changes when submerged. Air vented into the boat, which lead to higher pressure and would ruin a torpedo's depth setting - in the early years. Torpedo impact pistols did not trigger in the early war as soon as it would not hit a target at roughly 90 degrees, this is modelled correctly. Only after the capturing of the HMS "Seal" the pistols were changed and allowed lower angles of impact. So it is quite easy: In the early war 1. do not use magnetic pistols, 2. fire from an angle that allows the torpedo to hit at roughly 90 degrees, 3. set the depth to one metre - at least it will not underrun the target. Knowing this certainly gives you an advantage the U-boat commanders did not have ... Greetings, Catfish

08-05-05, 07:15 AM	#14
SmokinTep Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Suffolk, Virginia Posts: 1,027 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I was reading where the detonaters became active after 90 meters once fired. Seems I should be able to hit someting at 200 meters.

08-05-05, 08:09 AM	#15
don1reed Ace of the Deep Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Valhalla: Silent Generation Posts: 1,149 Downloads: 910 Uploads: 0	...being within 200m of a target when a torpedo detonated could cause the shock wave to damage the sub.