Allied Air Force vs. Submarine

[Navigator777]

Hello everyone!
My screen is 1366/768 and when I was looking for how to make a full screen from a window, I tried all the extenders I found by trial and error. And I liked wac NYGM v 2017 - 1366/768 extender for my screen more in terms of contrast, visuals and overall picture. I didn't even realize that NYGM is also a megamod, the picture turned out cool and unusual and oh well)

. And in the end I got a build of the game
SH3 + GWX + wac NYGM v2017 1366/768

I just now quickly read about this megamod. And when it is compared with other megamods, it has the most evil escorts and the most evil aviation compared to others.
As the game progressed, a purely historical question arose about the penetrating power of machine gun fire of allied aviation. If in the basic SH3 the main damage to the submarine's hull strength is caused by bombs, then with the GWX mod, aircraft machine guns cause almost the same damage. One attack by an aircraft firing machine guns and up to a quarter of the hull strength is gone. Moreover, in the Academy of the mod, when there is an attack by many aircraft and it is impossible to dodge, the submarine can withstand a direct hit from an aerial bomb and lose the same quarter of its strength. If the Braunig 7.7 and 12.7 machine guns, which the Allied aircraft were armed with, had such high efficiency, then no bombs are needed. And the Catalina and Sunderland flying boats with their large number of machine guns are a terrible flying fortress even without bombs and capable of sinking a submarine with pure machine gun fire. Especially considering that with my installed mods, they and other aircraft are much more difficult to shoot down.
I looked for historical facts about this machine gun effectiveness against a submarine, but I did not find anything about submarines in fact.

In thematic chats on history, I was answered:
The strong hull could withstand fire from machine guns and small-caliber guns of ships and aircraft. In post-war tests of captured boats, it turned out that 20-mm and 23-mm shells and 37-mm fragmentation-incendiary shells only caused damage to the light hull. To penetrate the strong hull, 37-mm armor-piercing shells or 57-mm tank guns were required, which were installed on one of the modifications of the British multi-role fighter-bomber "Mosquito". The first "Mosquito", equipped with a 57-mm gun, took to the air on June 8, 1943 and received the index FB.XVIII "Tsetse". The African fly was chosen as the name of the new modification of the fighter-bomber because of the strong piercing proboscis protruding from the front of the head. Already in November 1943, the new "Mosquito" first tried its hand at U-123 of Oberleutnant zur See Horst von Schroeter, returning to base in the Bay of Biscay. The fired 57-mm shell made a decent hole in the submarine's strong hull measuring 18 x 6.5 cm and deprived it of the ability to dive. One of the submariners died, two more crew members were wounded. However, the submarine managed to escape death and reached the base.

Before that, when I played the basic SH3, machine gun fire only caused damage to the conning tower (up to the failure of the anti-aircraft guns) and the deck flooring. The strong hull is penetrated either by dropped bombs or fired rockets. In principle, it corresponds to historical reality. However, I have not encountered a "Tsetse" with a 57-mm gun in the game.
. And when I started playing with mods, even a reconnaissance plane with two 7.7 machine guns, one in the front and one in the back, suffers damage to the hull strength. And flying boats with their 5 or 8 machine guns and Hurricane fighters with four 20 mm cannons are some kind of scary monsters.

Other players playing with the GWX mod assembly answer that their hull strength is at a realistic level. That is, machine guns are not scary to them. Damage only from bombs and collisions with other objects. As it was in reality.

Apparently, this effect of machine gun fire, which is terrible for the strong hull of a submarine, is given by NYGM.
Maybe there is some way to return aircraft fire from cannons and machine guns to historical reality, when at least it will not destroy the strong hull of a submarine and be able to sink it even without bombs?
If you do not remove the NYGM mod itself, which, according to reviews, has the most evil escorts and aircraft. But this makes the game more interesting.

[Shadowblade]

yeah, I was also told that 57 mm AP ammo was needed to penetrate the pressure hull:

Originally Posted by Hooston

Historically 57mm armour piercing shot from the Tse-tse Mosquito was necessary. The pressure hull was at least 18.5mm of steel, so in practice (taking into account angle, range and water in the way) it was proof against all machine guns and even 20mm cannon. The conning tower was at least as well protected. See the career of U441 https://uboat.net/boats/u441.htm
The weak points were the crew manning the flak guns - a quad 20mm needs a whole bunch of loaders - and the saddle ballast tanks (which were relatively small and not essential for safe operation).
An RP-3 solid shot rocket could go into the water then straight through the pressure hull and even, allegedly, out the other side. The pressure bulkheads within the boat were not very strong, so any sizeable hole would prevent the boat from diving and could sink it outright.

[Hooston]

it's only a game in the end. If you get too pedantic about realism you will end up bitter, twisted and disappointed and get involved in silly arguments on this forum. After a while you have to get used to some "features" and choose a favourite set of mods. The original coders made some mistakes, then generations of modders have fixed some of these and added some new ones!
if NYGM is your thing I believe Fifi's Enhanced Hardcore version is where it is at if you have a decent graphics card. He is very active on this forum and listens and reacts to reasonable comments. Last time I looked he had included an optional 1366x768 GUI.
GWX Knights Cross still seems to have "laser guided" escorts, I prefer NYGM because in the older version I usually play the escorts do not have such good passive hydrophones (at least early war) and I have some freedom of manoeuvre at ranges over 3km or so.
Now I have a proper PC available I'm going to give Fifi a try and see what he's fixed and what he's broken

[Navigator777]

Originally Posted by Hooston

it's only a game in the end. If you get too pedantic about realism you will end up bitter, twisted and disappointed and get involved in silly arguments on this forum. After a while you have to get used to some "features" and choose a favourite set of mods. The original coders made some mistakes, then generations of modders have fixed some of these and added some new ones!
if NYGM is your thing I believe Fifi's Enhanced Hardcore version is where it is at if you have a decent graphics card. He is very active on this forum and listens and reacts to reasonable comments. Last time I looked he had included an optional 1366x768 GUI.
GWX Knights Cross still seems to have "laser guided" escorts, I prefer NYGM because in the older version I usually play the escorts do not have such good passive hydrophones (at least early war) and I have some freedom of manoeuvre at ranges over 3km or so.
Now I have a proper PC available I'm going to give Fifi a try and see what he's fixed and what he's broken

My video card is probably not the most advanced, if you need a very powerful one. Thanks for the advice, I'll check out the thread with the NYGM topic.
I tried adding the mods Improved Air Defense Capabilities V1. 1 and U Guns V5 and it became easier to fight off aircraft and the submarine's durable hull doesn't suffer as much

[Navigator777]

Originally Posted by Shadowblade

yeah, I was also told that 57 mm AP ammo was needed to penetrate the pressure hull:

I've never seen a Mosquito with a 57mm gun in the game before.

[Hooston]

Looks like the Tse-Tse is in the new GWX Knights Cross edition. Never seen one, but it is in the game data files.
There was a bug for a long time where aircraft at some crew competence levels would not drop bombs on the first pass. The Tse-tse would certainly end that get out of jail option!
In real life rockets were found to be more versatile than big cannons so Tse-tse's were quite rare (wikipedia says 18 were built). One did shoot the engine off a Ju88 once!

[Captain Drastic]

There is a mod in the gameplay downloads section of the Silent Hunter III site called "MyBulletsCannotSinkSub.zip (3.6 KB)". I don't' use it for some reason, maybe I tested it and found the CTD mentioned in the comments of the download section. It sounds interesting and comes with very informative documentation, which is worth having just for that. However, upon further research I found a "Shells_ZON" file in the "HSIE Hardcode Patch 4C" which I already use, and it seems to do the same thing as the "MyBulletsCannotSinkSub" mod without the possible CTD. I recommend using the HSIE Hardcode Patch 4C anyway, as a must-have feature.

[Navigator777]

Originally Posted by Captain Drastic

There is a mod in the gameplay downloads section of the Silent Hunter III site called "MyBulletsCannotSinkSub.zip (3.6 KB)". I don't' use it for some reason, maybe I tested it and found the CTD mentioned in the comments of the download section. It sounds interesting and comes with very informative documentation, which is worth having just for that. However, upon further research I found a "Shells_ZON" file in the "HSIE Hardcode Patch 4C" which I already use, and it seems to do the same thing as the "MyBulletsCannotSinkSub" mod without the possible CTD. I recommend using the HSIE Hardcode Patch 4C anyway, as a must-have feature.

I installed the "MyBulletsKannot" mod, but as soon as the plane attacks and the first machine gun bullets hit the submarine's strong hull, the game immediately crashes. Perhaps some mods are not compatible with this mod. Therefore, I removed it from the game build for now. I installed mods that increase the power of anti-aircraft weapons and it turns out to fight off attacks and shoot down planes, due to which they no longer destroy the submarine's hull as much. I haven't tried the second option you suggested yet. If I find it and it suits me, I'll try it. Thanks for the recommendations!

[Navigator777]

Originally Posted by Hooston

Looks like the Tse-Tse is in the new GWX Knights Cross edition. Never seen one, but it is in the game data files.
There was a bug for a long time where aircraft at some crew competence levels would not drop bombs on the first pass. The Tse-tse would certainly end that get out of jail option!
In real life rockets were found to be more versatile than big cannons so Tse-tse's were quite rare (wikipedia says 18 were built). One did shoot the engine off a Ju88 once!

In my opinion, anti-aircraft fire from a submarine prevents aircraft from aiming accurately and they do not drop bombs and only fire from machine guns. If you start to dive, then nothing interferes with the aircraft and they begin an attack with bombs. Under anti-aircraft fire, if aircraft do carry out bombing, then the probability of a miss and inaccuracy of this will be higher. By the way, I asked chatGPT about 57 mm guns and he answered that U-976 was sunk from such guns in March 1944. I looked on the uboat. net website about this boat. It says there that the U-976 boat was sunk on March 25, 1944 in the Bay of Biscay southwest of Saint-Nazaire by fire from two British Mosquito aircraft. It is not specified whether they were armed with guns.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Navigator777

Hello everyone!
My screen is 1366/768 and when I was looking for how to make a full screen from a window, I tried all the extenders I found by trial and error. And I liked wac NYGM v 2017 - 1366/768 extender for my screen more in terms of contrast, visuals and overall picture. I didn't even realize that NYGM is also a megamod, the picture turned out cool and unusual and oh well)

. And in the end I got a build of the game
SH3 + GWX + wac NYGM v2017 1366/768

I just now quickly read about this megamod. And when it is compared with other megamods, it has the most evil escorts and the most evil aviation compared to others.
As the game progressed, a purely historical question arose about the penetrating power of machine gun fire of allied aviation. If in the basic SH3 the main damage to the submarine's hull strength is caused by bombs, then with the GWX mod, aircraft machine guns cause almost the same damage. One attack by an aircraft firing machine guns and up to a quarter of the hull strength is gone. Moreover, in the Academy of the mod, when there is an attack by many aircraft and it is impossible to dodge, the submarine can withstand a direct hit from an aerial bomb and lose the same quarter of its strength. If the Braunig 7.7 and 12.7 machine guns, which the Allied aircraft were armed with, had such high efficiency, then no bombs are needed. And the Catalina and Sunderland flying boats with their large number of machine guns are a terrible flying fortress even without bombs and capable of sinking a submarine with pure machine gun fire. Especially considering that with my installed mods, they and other aircraft are much more difficult to shoot down.
I looked for historical facts about this machine gun effectiveness against a submarine, but I did not find anything about submarines in fact.

In thematic chats on history, I was answered:
The strong hull could withstand fire from machine guns and small-caliber guns of ships and aircraft. In post-war tests of captured boats, it turned out that 20-mm and 23-mm shells and 37-mm fragmentation-incendiary shells only caused damage to the light hull. To penetrate the strong hull, 37-mm armor-piercing shells or 57-mm tank guns were required, which were installed on one of the modifications of the British multi-role fighter-bomber "Mosquito". The first "Mosquito", equipped with a 57-mm gun, took to the air on June 8, 1943 and received the index FB.XVIII "Tsetse". The African fly was chosen as the name of the new modification of the fighter-bomber because of the strong piercing proboscis protruding from the front of the head. Already in November 1943, the new "Mosquito" first tried its hand at U-123 of Oberleutnant zur See Horst von Schroeter, returning to base in the Bay of Biscay. The fired 57-mm shell made a decent hole in the submarine's strong hull measuring 18 x 6.5 cm and deprived it of the ability to dive. One of the submariners died, two more crew members were wounded. However, the submarine managed to escape death and reached the base.

Before that, when I played the basic SH3, machine gun fire only caused damage to the conning tower (up to the failure of the anti-aircraft guns) and the deck flooring. The strong hull is penetrated either by dropped bombs or fired rockets. In principle, it corresponds to historical reality. However, I have not encountered a "Tsetse" with a 57-mm gun in the game.
. And when I started playing with mods, even a reconnaissance plane with two 7.7 machine guns, one in the front and one in the back, suffers damage to the hull strength. And flying boats with their 5 or 8 machine guns and Hurricane fighters with four 20 mm cannons are some kind of scary monsters.

Other players playing with the GWX mod assembly answer that their hull strength is at a realistic level. That is, machine guns are not scary to them. Damage only from bombs and collisions with other objects. As it was in reality.

Apparently, this effect of machine gun fire, which is terrible for the strong hull of a submarine, is given by NYGM.
Maybe there is some way to return aircraft fire from cannons and machine guns to historical reality, when at least it will not destroy the strong hull of a submarine and be able to sink it even without bombs?
If you do not remove the NYGM mod itself, which, according to reviews, has the most evil escorts and aircraft. But this makes the game more interesting.

In GWX Knights Cross I think this is sorted, myself and S7rikeback took the trouble to separate 20mm cannons and MGs on aircraft since there is a big difference, S7rikeback made a new 10mm shell which we used for all aircraft Machine guns of any calibre - since even a 0.50 cal round could not breach a Uboats hull, where as a 20mm cannon could.

All aircraft were updated to have their historic armaments, so in KC the only types which can cause damage to your Hull integrity are those armed with 20mm guns like the Mosquito, Beaufighter, Liberator Mk2 etc. But most of the bombers do not have 20mm. The sound effects of both gun types was also changed so you can hear the difference in them. We found a Hispano cannon sound for the 20mm, and a .50 cal Browing Sound for MGs, MG's can still of course, cause minor damage to your Turm and kill your crew on deck. I cant speak for how other mods handle it.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Navigator777

I've never seen a Mosquito with a 57mm gun in the game before.

They appear over the Bay of Biscay later war -43 onwards, If you see one I reccomend you dont fight it, Its gun will shread your Hull integrity horribly, even if you win, expect flooding in multiple compartments and many dead crew. They are pure evil, lol.
Watch out for RAF ASW Liberators too, The MK3 has the rockets and the MK2 has 4x 20mm mounted in pod on its belly. Both hurt, alot.


Trailer for the RAF aircraft in KC if interested, (I think we covered all types listed on Uboat.net.)

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Navigator777

In my opinion, anti-aircraft fire from a submarine prevents aircraft from aiming accurately and they do not drop bombs and only fire from machine guns. If you start to dive, then nothing interferes with the aircraft and they begin an attack with bombs. Under anti-aircraft fire, if aircraft do carry out bombing, then the probability of a miss and inaccuracy of this will be higher. By the way, I asked chatGPT about 57 mm guns and he answered that U-976 was sunk from such guns in March 1944. I looked on the uboat. net website about this boat. It says there that the U-976 boat was sunk on March 25, 1944 in the Bay of Biscay southwest of Saint-Nazaire by fire from two British Mosquito aircraft. It is not specified whether they were armed with guns.

Aircraft AI is bare bone basic in SH3 and we cant even fix the stupidly steep attack angle of their attacking dive - E.g every plane with 'dive bomber' characteristics dives like Stuka, Even the sunderlands, where as in IRL that thing could barley even take off, let alone recover from a 45 degree dive at low alitude! :P Only othe roption is 'level bomber' mode, but then they bomb your boat in the same way they would carpet bomb a factory in Berlin - which is even more stupid.
There is certainly no way put off their aim by shooting at them, they just aint smart or sophisticated enough for any of that and they often dont even value their own self preservation that much, undeterred by AAA and merrily flying in to mountains. Also when SH3 planes run out of bombs (or dummy bombs) they often just enter a controlled but suicidal decending death sprial in to the sea. So yeah... we can only expect so much from them.


Biggest factor in Uboat Vs Aircraft combat in SH3 is your speed. if you are going at ahead flank, the plane will struggle to get its bombs on target, but likewise, your own AAA crew will struggle to land hits on it. Go slow or all stop, and you are both much, much eaiser targets for each other.
Also if an aircraft bombs you from your Aft, They are far more deadly and score multiple hits along the length of your boats hull, rather than just one - potentially ending you in a single pass. so if you see a plane coming in for a run on your 180, it would be very wise to make a turn.

[Captain Drastic]

You are right about the steep angles of aircraft AI, I have asked before if anyone had a fix. It looks dumb when they do a steep climb and dive just to turn.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Captain Drastic

You are right about the steep angles of aircraft AI, I have asked before if anyone had a fix. It looks dumb when they do a steep climb and dive just to turn.

Yeah it sucks, sadly not possible to edit

[Hooston]

Originally Posted by Navigator777

It says there that the U-976 boat was sunk on March 25, 1944 in the Bay of Biscay southwest of Saint-Nazaire by fire from two British Mosquito aircraft. It is not specified whether they were armed with guns.

AI finds text on the internet matching your question, combines it with your question and spits it back at you. It has no real understanding or knowledge, no quality control, and makes stuff up to fill in gaps. Which is what makes it seem human I guess!!! Wikipedia says U-976 was bitten by a mkXVIII Tse-tse, and includes a proper reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito. ...I wonder how much of Wikipedia is being edited by AI! We really are living in a post-truth age.
I'm not sure about 20mm cannon. Although there was an "armour piercing incendiary" round I think this was more designed for thin aluminium aircraft armour and would struggle against 18.5mm high tensile steel. The British must have developed the Tse-tse for a reason! I'd be interested in any hard data. I read an account of a British Cromwell tank that was shot at by a German 20mm flak and all the rounds stuck in the armour instead of bouncing off. It turned out the crew had been given a mild steel training tank by mistake. They decided to keep it because it was a lot faster than the rest of the troop.

Your regular Mosquito FB mkVI, and the Beaufighter had four 20mm cannon which would certainly make a hell of a mess of everything outside the pressure hull. The U-Flak boat U-441 got a good working over from 3 Beaufighters which killed 10 men and wounded 13. However despite this the boat was able to dive away and made it back to port under the command of the boat's doctor https://uboat.net/boats/u441.htm.