Problems with manual targeting

FireDragon76 · 04-07-21, 10:00 AM

I'm now fairly competent targeting a single merchant and can even do sonar only attacks with some skill. But really only on a single ship. With a convoy situation, the system starts to break down and just becomes a case of task overload.

I'm looking for some targeting mods for SH4. Something that would give the flexibility of manual targeting, but some of the automatic features of the auto targeting without some of the magical instant accuracy. The way that the manual targeting works with the TBT right now is a bit clunky. You can input range and bearing information from the sonar station (but not radar) directly into the TDC, but not the TBT. That means you have to use either direct input of range into the TBT (if it's close enough), or the stadimeter, if you want the TBT to calculate speed and course.

As it is... I almost think auto targeting is the way to go for sheer gameplay and you don't really lose too much in terms of realism. With auto targeting, you still have to have a good firing solution, and ideally you have around a 90 degree track to the target.

clayton · 04-07-21, 03:21 PM

Ever since Gato, I've used auto-targeting in sub sims. Maybe that's how I was raised to play, idk. Regardless, I chalk it up to the Exec crunching numbers while I figure out the game plan. You know, the 'Mush Morton' technique.

3catcircus · 04-07-21, 04:31 PM

Convoy attacks require the willingness to fire without actually perfect solutions.

My normal approach to convoys is to set myself up in either a 75 degree or 105 degree offset rather than 90 degrees from the convoy course. This gives you a better opportunity to hit multiple columns.

I then use full manual targeting (no TDC) based upon torpedo speed, target speed, and track angle. Wait for desired bits to cross the wire and then launch all fwd tubes. Then, I'll swing around to be 180 degrees facing on a parallel course and use the TDC for a 90 or 270 degree gyro angle using the stern tubes if I can't get around fast enough to bring them to bear with manual shooting.

Mad Mardigan · 04-07-21, 08:27 PM

Ahoy..

My approach, with either a merchie convoy or even a Task force, is the same approach & has worked well enough for Me. Get within 7,000 (or 4,000 if in an S boat...), on as parallel a course as possible with maybe a slight 5 degree in bound slip added in, ahead of them.. set up the fish, accordingly to what I know is the targets (I keep a pad to make notes on what the composition of the targets is.. noted on what ship is where.. & lil' tidbits of draft read on them). Using that info, then setting the fish accordingly. Once that is done, then dive & then open all tubes, and wait a bit to allow them to begin to pass by til I feel they are where I want them to be.. & let fly with the torps.

Once the last torp has left the tube.. I drop scope, & claw for the depths on a 10 degree course headed a bit off & away from where I launched from..

After that, prepared to dodge if I have to, any escorts that might by chance head that direction... I play it by ear, after that as to how I proceed from there to reattack, or slip out away, surface & run out ahead to reacquire & reattack if needed. Just depends on how the initial attack pans...

How I do that, has worked fairly well so far. Have been a couple of targets, that limped off to lick their wounds.. but, not very many.

M. M.

Of note, I do use auto targeting.. figure use the crew.. is what a skipper would do.. use all his available resources to make an attack...

3catcircus · 04-08-21, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad Mardigan

Ahoy..

My approach, with either a merchie convoy or even a Task force, is the same approach & has worked well enough for Me. Get within 7,000 (or 4,000 if in an S boat...), on as parallel a course as possible with maybe a slight 5 degree in bound slip added in, ahead of them.. set up the fish, accordingly to what I know is the targets (I keep a pad to make notes on what the composition of the targets is.. noted on what ship is where.. & lil' tidbits of draft read on them). Using that info, then setting the fish accordingly. Once that is done, then dive & then open all tubes, and wait a bit to allow them to begin to pass by til I feel they are where I want them to be.. & let fly with the torps.

Once the last torp has left the tube.. I drop scope, & claw for the depths on a 10 degree course headed a bit off & away from where I launched from..

After that, prepared to dodge if I have to, any escorts that might by chance head that direction... I play it by ear, after that as to how I proceed from there to reattack, or slip out away, surface & run out ahead to reacquire & reattack if needed. Just depends on how the initial attack pans...

How I do that, has worked fairly well so far. Have been a couple of targets, that limped off to lick their wounds.. but, not very many.

M. M.

Of note, I do use auto targeting.. figure use the crew.. is what a skipper would do.. use all his available resources to make an attack...

I use the crew to ID targets (manually going through the rec manual to get to the correct page takes forever and becomes to slow when you have to wait until they are close enough to see enough detail to determine the target type). I have the sonar guys follow angel call out bearings, I'll have the bridge crew call out ranges and bearings, and I have map updates on, but I'm the one lining up the approach and deciding when the solution is good.

FireDragon76 · 04-08-21, 11:26 PM

I guess I'm used to other game genres, and I'm a casual player. (the last sub sim I played alot was Aces of the Deep, and while I tried SH3... Aces was still better IMO).

My casual style of play probably means I have unusual, and ahistorical attack doctrine. I like to sink a ship with 2, maybe 3 torpedoes at most... 4-6 if it's really big (a carrier). I try to get the torpedo to explode under the keel, right under the engines. I've had a few ships "cook off" while I thought they were just merely limping along after two hits, but they almost always go down. But this tactic only seems to work after 1943, before then it's too unreiable and I just fill the ships full of contact exploders.

Also, to save ammo I ram sampans. I'm not sure if that's historical either. I've even rammed a gunboat or two. You can cause alot of mayhem in the SH4 career without even touching torpedoes. There are plenty of stealth and escort scenarios in the career mode which makes it a good change of pace from older sub sims that focused purely on tonnage.

garytwinem · 04-18-21, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireDragon76

I'm now fairly competent targeting a single merchant and can even do sonar only attacks with some skill. But really only on a single ship. With a convoy situation, the system starts to break down and just becomes a case of task overload.

I'm looking for some targeting mods for SH4. Something that would give the flexibility of manual targeting, but some of the automatic features of the auto targeting without some of the magical instant accuracy. The way that the manual targeting works with the TBT right now is a bit clunky. You can input range and bearing information from the sonar station (but not radar) directly into the TDC, but not the TBT. That means you have to use either direct input of range into the TBT (if it's close enough), or the stadimeter, if you want the TBT to calculate speed and course.

As it is... I almost think auto targeting is the way to go for sheer gameplay and you don't really lose too much in terms of realism. With auto targeting, you still have to have a good firing solution, and ideally you have around a 90 degree track to the target.

Manual targetting is bugged, anyway-the torpedoes always miss behind the target, even from point blank range, 90 degree AOB, set to fast, 900yds distance.

propbeanie · 04-18-21, 09:47 AM

Consistently missing behind usually indicates that the torpedo doors have not been opened prior to pressing the Fire button. Open the doors first with the <Q> button, and cycle through the tubes with the <W> button. Some mods add the rear tubes cycle with the <E> key. With the Dick O'Kane method, you fire as the ship crosses a predetermined line, which is dependent upon the ship's speed. If late because of the doors, you'll be off by roughly 2 seconds. About a ship's length.

garytwinem · 04-18-21, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Consistently missing behind usually indicates that the torpedo doors have not been opened prior to pressing the Fire button. Open the doors first with the <Q> button, and cycle through the tubes with the <W> button. Some mods add the rear tubes cycle with the <E> key. With the Dick O'Kane method, you fire as the ship crosses a predetermined line, which is dependent upon the ship's speed. If late because of the doors, you'll be off by roughly 2 seconds. About a ship's length.

Yeah, I know about opening doors etc. I practiced a bit more and am getting more hits now. Remembering to turn tracking on helps

Bubblehead1980 · 04-18-21, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garytwinem

Yeah, I know about opening doors etc. I practiced a bit more and am getting more hits now. Remembering to turn tracking on helps

Sending a final bearing right before shooting is important, even with PK on...fire 1, send new bearing, fire 2, send bearing..and so on. Thus are firing shots as individually torpedo shots, not a salvo. This works best in most cases, close range etc. For typical freighter worth three torpedoes, like to aim one a center, usually under stack, one on forward mast, last on aft mast. Nice, spread. Longer ranges, the spread knob on TDC, for small vessels one degree of spread, most merchants two degrees seems to get it. Larger warships...2.5-3 degrees typically works.

04-07-21, 10:00 AM	#1
FireDragon76 Bosun Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 65 Downloads: 111 Uploads: 0	Problems with manual targeting I'm now fairly competent targeting a single merchant and can even do sonar only attacks with some skill. But really only on a single ship. With a convoy situation, the system starts to break down and just becomes a case of task overload. I'm looking for some targeting mods for SH4. Something that would give the flexibility of manual targeting, but some of the automatic features of the auto targeting without some of the magical instant accuracy. The way that the manual targeting works with the TBT right now is a bit clunky. You can input range and bearing information from the sonar station (but not radar) directly into the TDC, but not the TBT. That means you have to use either direct input of range into the TBT (if it's close enough), or the stadimeter, if you want the TBT to calculate speed and course. As it is... I almost think auto targeting is the way to go for sheer gameplay and you don't really lose too much in terms of realism. With auto targeting, you still have to have a good firing solution, and ideally you have around a 90 degree track to the target.

04-07-21, 03:21 PM	#2
clayton Samurai Navy Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: At your mom's house... Posts: 571 Downloads: 218 Uploads: 0	Ever since Gato, I've used auto-targeting in sub sims. Maybe that's how I was raised to play, idk. Regardless, I chalk it up to the Exec crunching numbers while I figure out the game plan. You know, the 'Mush Morton' technique. __________________ Active member of the 'Church of SH4'

04-07-21, 08:27 PM	#4
Mad Mardigan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Grand Rapids, Mi. Posts: 2,327 Downloads: 491 Uploads: 0	Re: Targeting.. Ahoy.. My approach, with either a merchie convoy or even a Task force, is the same approach & has worked well enough for Me. Get within 7,000 (or 4,000 if in an S boat...), on as parallel a course as possible with maybe a slight 5 degree in bound slip added in, ahead of them.. set up the fish, accordingly to what I know is the targets (I keep a pad to make notes on what the composition of the targets is.. noted on what ship is where.. & lil' tidbits of draft read on them). Using that info, then setting the fish accordingly. Once that is done, then dive & then open all tubes, and wait a bit to allow them to begin to pass by til I feel they are where I want them to be.. & let fly with the torps. Once the last torp has left the tube.. I drop scope, & claw for the depths on a 10 degree course headed a bit off & away from where I launched from.. After that, prepared to dodge if I have to, any escorts that might by chance head that direction... I play it by ear, after that as to how I proceed from there to reattack, or slip out away, surface & run out ahead to reacquire & reattack if needed. Just depends on how the initial attack pans... How I do that, has worked fairly well so far. Have been a couple of targets, that limped off to lick their wounds.. but, not very many. M. M. Of note, I do use auto targeting.. figure use the crew.. is what a skipper would do.. use all his available resources to make an attack... __________________

04-18-21, 09:47 AM	#8
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 10,098 Downloads: 451 Uploads: 2	Consistently missing behind usually indicates that the torpedo doors have not been opened prior to pressing the Fire button. Open the doors first with the <Q> button, and cycle through the tubes with the <W> button. Some mods add the rear tubes cycle with the <E> key. With the Dick O'Kane method, you fire as the ship crosses a predetermined line, which is dependent upon the ship's speed. If late because of the doors, you'll be off by roughly 2 seconds. About a ship's length. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayers" - Jimbuna

04-07-21, 04:31 PM	#3
3catcircus Grey Wolf Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 979 Downloads: 256 Uploads: 0	Convoy attacks require the willingness to fire without actually perfect solutions. My normal approach to convoys is to set myself up in either a 75 degree or 105 degree offset rather than 90 degrees from the convoy course. This gives you a better opportunity to hit multiple columns. I then use full manual targeting (no TDC) based upon torpedo speed, target speed, and track angle. Wait for desired bits to cross the wire and then launch all fwd tubes. Then, I'll swing around to be 180 degrees facing on a parallel course and use the TDC for a 90 or 270 degree gyro angle using the stern tubes if I can't get around fast enough to bring them to bear with manual shooting.

04-08-21, 11:26 PM	#6
FireDragon76 Bosun Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 65 Downloads: 111 Uploads: 0	I guess I'm used to other game genres, and I'm a casual player. (the last sub sim I played alot was Aces of the Deep, and while I tried SH3... Aces was still better IMO). My casual style of play probably means I have unusual, and ahistorical attack doctrine. I like to sink a ship with 2, maybe 3 torpedoes at most... 4-6 if it's really big (a carrier). I try to get the torpedo to explode under the keel, right under the engines. I've had a few ships "cook off" while I thought they were just merely limping along after two hits, but they almost always go down. But this tactic only seems to work after 1943, before then it's too unreiable and I just fill the ships full of contact exploders. Also, to save ammo I ram sampans. I'm not sure if that's historical either. I've even rammed a gunboat or two. You can cause alot of mayhem in the SH4 career without even touching torpedoes. There are plenty of stealth and escort scenarios in the career mode which makes it a good change of pace from older sub sims that focused purely on tonnage.