F-35s for peace treaties?

Skybird · 11-02-20, 07:37 AM

I am split over this.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54737029

How trustworthy are treaties with Arab nations that only signed them to get weapons. It should be clear that none of these two, soon three (or are it aleady three?), nations doing it, did it because they disvovered their love for Israel suddenly. Their people dislike Israel and Jews, as ever, and may get alienated from their leaders, that way destabilising the political situation in these countries further.

Israel cannot pout too much trust in these treaties, and must watch out the egoist own interests of these nation'S govenrment. As logn as their selfishness meets Israeli interest, things can work. If that is no longer the case and the Arab govenments come under pressure from the street, is high alert time in Israel - with its military edge gone already once the planes have been delivered.

Then ther eis Iran, who is gainign strength and military capabiltiies, despite the sanctions. And China trying to get footholds in the reigon by credit lednign and arms sales. If the US wants to stay engaged in the ME - and I am anything but certain of that - , it muist regain abck trust of its formner allies that were deeply alienated in past years, and must pout them into a posditiuon where thexy cna militarily face Irans growing amvbitions and Chinese influx of weaponry. But that strategy only makes sense if the Us indeed wants to stay enagged in the ME. And as I said - I have strong doubts on that in general, and regarding Trump in special.

Its all a bit tricky. Personally I would never give top-line weaponry out of my hands, not even to "allies". Never. Do I know what they will do with them, or whom they sell their secrets to, under the hand, treaty-compliant or not? Also, personally I would not sell weaponry and military grade stuff around just like any civil goods and products in general. (For this reason I am against French-German cooperation in designing the new fighterplane and the new MBT. The French and the Germans have too differing views on how to use arms sales as political means. And such cooperations usually always end in the long run with the French pulling the stupid Germans over the table, it may take some time, but usually that is the outcome. The Germans always fall back sooner or later. Also, the Typhoon/Eurofighter in my book is anything but a success story. The pane itself by now may be a good plane, but it took way too long, its weaponry is too much in doubt, and the monetarian narration is - well...

However, it could be that the US have changed their mind and lined up with strategists in Russia, Europe and China: who say that the stealth factor is a nice advertising argument, but in practice not only will be countered sooner or later, rather sooner than later I would say, and military wepan doctrine will need the plane to compromise its advanbatges too much as if the high price tag is anymore justified. European defence ministries engaged in planning a new European fighter have actively decided against a n explciit F-35 like stealth design, and their military advisers rated it as too low oin the priority ist of military demands as if they wnated to spend too much money on it (already the Eurofighter was affected by such consideration to some degree). China and Russia buikld stealth palnes, but only at slow pace and in low numbers, clearly indicatign that they plan to leave the bulk of their airforce needs on conventional fighter designs. And both germany and Russia by now have quite advanced passive radar technology demonstrators that can unveile the cloaked F-35 in mida ir -a nd not even letting it kinow it has been dsicovered. The tehcnoloy is not yet where it shoudkl be, but they advance it with every year passing. The Russians are at it since decades longer than the Germans already. So, the F-35 may loose its seeling argument sooner or later, and so maybe someobdy in Washington said that one must make money with it while the price still is high.

Bilge_Rat · 11-02-20, 10:39 AM

two factors to keep in mind:

1. export models that the U.S. transfers to semi-allies like the Gulf states are often missing the most advanced features that U.S. models have, so you cannot assume Gulf States F-35s would be as capable as U.S./Israeli models;

2. Except for Israel, most nations in that region have abysmal military and maintenance skills. Pilots often rely on VFR only and do not use all the fancy electronic equipment. They also totaly rely on U.S. technicians for maintenance. So those planes will not pose a threat to Israel and if they did, it would be very easy to neuter them.

Providing military equipment is a very cheap price for finally moving forward with normalisation of Israel's status in the region.

Jimbuna · 11-02-20, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

two factors to keep in mind:

1. export models that the U.S. transfers to semi-allies like the Gulf states are often missing the most advanced features that U.S. models have, so you cannot assume Gulf States F-35s would be as capable as U.S./Israeli models;

2. Except for Israel, most nations in that region have abysmal military and maintenance skills. Pilots often rely on VFR only and do not use all the fancy electronic equipment. They also totaly rely on U.S. technicians for maintenance. So those planes will not pose a threat to Israel and if they did, it would be very easy to neuter them.

Providing military equipment is a very cheap price for finally moving forward with normalisation of Israel's status in the region.

Yes as has long been the case

mapuc · 11-02-20, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

They also totaly rely on U.S. technicians for maintenance. So those planes will not pose a threat to Israel and if they did, it would be very easy to neuter them.

It's not only USA who has aircraft technicians. My nephew and a few more have been sent by the Swedish air force/government to Saudi-Arabia to teach them how to repair Swedish fighter jet or fighter jet in general.
I only know he left Sweden in the beginning of Oct.
He shall be there for two year

Markus

Rockstar · 11-02-20, 08:08 PM

The Iranian arms embargo recently expired. I'd expect then Russia and China will be wanting to sell their wares to Iran as soon as possible or maybe trade for bases. So we pretty much dont have a choice but to respond and provide arms to the predominately Sunni nations. The sales also align with our long term doctrines for the region too. As for Trump, from what I've gathered, he took executive action to make the sales happen because he couldn't get congress to work with him. It appears the the worlds largest arms dealers are back in business and business is boomin'

Israel, the U.S. has also enacted legislation which reinforces our commitment to provide Israel with whats called a 'Qualitative Military Edge'.

11-02-20, 07:37 AM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	F-35s for peace treaties? I am split over this. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54737029 How trustworthy are treaties with Arab nations that only signed them to get weapons. It should be clear that none of these two, soon three (or are it aleady three?), nations doing it, did it because they disvovered their love for Israel suddenly. Their people dislike Israel and Jews, as ever, and may get alienated from their leaders, that way destabilising the political situation in these countries further. Israel cannot pout too much trust in these treaties, and must watch out the egoist own interests of these nation'S govenrment. As logn as their selfishness meets Israeli interest, things can work. If that is no longer the case and the Arab govenments come under pressure from the street, is high alert time in Israel - with its military edge gone already once the planes have been delivered. Then ther eis Iran, who is gainign strength and military capabiltiies, despite the sanctions. And China trying to get footholds in the reigon by credit lednign and arms sales. If the US wants to stay engaged in the ME - and I am anything but certain of that - , it muist regain abck trust of its formner allies that were deeply alienated in past years, and must pout them into a posditiuon where thexy cna militarily face Irans growing amvbitions and Chinese influx of weaponry. But that strategy only makes sense if the Us indeed wants to stay enagged in the ME. And as I said - I have strong doubts on that in general, and regarding Trump in special. Its all a bit tricky. Personally I would never give top-line weaponry out of my hands, not even to "allies". Never. Do I know what they will do with them, or whom they sell their secrets to, under the hand, treaty-compliant or not? Also, personally I would not sell weaponry and military grade stuff around just like any civil goods and products in general. (For this reason I am against French-German cooperation in designing the new fighterplane and the new MBT. The French and the Germans have too differing views on how to use arms sales as political means. And such cooperations usually always end in the long run with the French pulling the stupid Germans over the table, it may take some time, but usually that is the outcome. The Germans always fall back sooner or later. Also, the Typhoon/Eurofighter in my book is anything but a success story. The pane itself by now may be a good plane, but it took way too long, its weaponry is too much in doubt, and the monetarian narration is - well... However, it could be that the US have changed their mind and lined up with strategists in Russia, Europe and China: who say that the stealth factor is a nice advertising argument, but in practice not only will be countered sooner or later, rather sooner than later I would say, and military wepan doctrine will need the plane to compromise its advanbatges too much as if the high price tag is anymore justified. European defence ministries engaged in planning a new European fighter have actively decided against a n explciit F-35 like stealth design, and their military advisers rated it as too low oin the priority ist of military demands as if they wnated to spend too much money on it (already the Eurofighter was affected by such consideration to some degree). China and Russia buikld stealth palnes, but only at slow pace and in low numbers, clearly indicatign that they plan to leave the bulk of their airforce needs on conventional fighter designs. And both germany and Russia by now have quite advanced passive radar technology demonstrators that can unveile the cloaked F-35 in mida ir -a nd not even letting it kinow it has been dsicovered. The tehcnoloy is not yet where it shoudkl be, but they advance it with every year passing. The Russians are at it since decades longer than the Germans already. So, the F-35 may loose its seeling argument sooner or later, and so maybe someobdy in Washington said that one must make money with it while the price still is high. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 11-02-20 at 08:17 AM.

11-02-20, 10:39 AM	#2
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,855 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	two factors to keep in mind: 1. export models that the U.S. transfers to semi-allies like the Gulf states are often missing the most advanced features that U.S. models have, so you cannot assume Gulf States F-35s would be as capable as U.S./Israeli models; 2. Except for Israel, most nations in that region have abysmal military and maintenance skills. Pilots often rely on VFR only and do not use all the fancy electronic equipment. They also totaly rely on U.S. technicians for maintenance. So those planes will not pose a threat to Israel and if they did, it would be very easy to neuter them. Providing military equipment is a very cheap price for finally moving forward with normalisation of Israel's status in the region. __________________

11-02-20, 08:08 PM	#5
Rockstar In the Brig Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 12,614 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	The Iranian arms embargo recently expired. I'd expect then Russia and China will be wanting to sell their wares to Iran as soon as possible or maybe trade for bases. So we pretty much dont have a choice but to respond and provide arms to the predominately Sunni nations. The sales also align with our long term doctrines for the region too. As for Trump, from what I've gathered, he took executive action to make the sales happen because he couldn't get congress to work with him. It appears the the worlds largest arms dealers are back in business and business is boomin' Israel, the U.S. has also enacted legislation which reinforces our commitment to provide Israel with whats called a 'Qualitative Military Edge'. Last edited by Rockstar; 11-02-20 at 10:06 PM.