China'S show of military strength

Skybird · 10-02-19, 05:54 AM

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49891769

No longer Russian made, but self-made. With friendly help by Western technology-transferring "partners". How idiotic the West was there when even volunteering in this role.

Many observers and analysts these days say the pace at which the Chinese modernise and comes to power, is breathtaking and unprecedented in history. And they boost not just quality or just quantity - they boost both, especially navy and submarines. Where as in Europe, quality goes at the cost of quantity. Add to this the quckly weaving of an international network of military and logistic supply bases that could help military out of area operations.

Jimbuna · 10-02-19, 07:54 AM

Whilst agreeing with the above I'd still put them third in overall capability behind the US and Russia.

Skybird · 10-02-19, 08:30 AM

They have a top class cyberwarfare division, and they must not scatter their conventional forces across so many places and along so long borders and along such long supply lines, as especially the US needs and wants to do. In other words: the US is, imo at least, hopelessly overstretched.

The base network of the US is a valuable ressource during peace time and in low intensity regional conflicts. In case of a real serious big war, many of them will turn into ashes in the first hours of such a war, and what that means in negative setbacks for the overly complex supply chain and especially digital network capability of the US, maybe nobody really knows. What is known however is that US forces decisively depend on these networks and are worth only half their money if needing to go without them. Which means they maybe then would be no match for a numerically superior enemy who is technologically as advanced, or almost as, and is operating under his own ground-based air protection umbrella.

The Chinese claim they can relatively reliably take out US carriers. And they have the numerical superiority in submarines in the region. They can turn areas of their interest in vicinity of their country into access denial zones, and I do not see the US being able to change that anymore. At the same time I do not share the almost monumental trust of the West in its anti.-missile capabilities. Since Gulf 91 it has shown time and again that anti-missiles systems do not get close to their claimed take-out quota, or make things even worse after having turned one big incoming object into a cloud of many small ones, like birdshot. At the same time, Russia or China woujkld not fire mostly relatiovely "harmless" improvised rockets like Hezbollah does in Lebanon - and even their rockets and missles get more advanced by now, thanks to Iran. And Israel's iron dome is not able to take them all out.

And different to American society, the Chinese public is more willing to high own losses if that is what it takes to win a war. The political and leadership structure of China is another plus for them in case of conflicts. It means a much shorter and quicker chain of command, and faster reactions to strategic changes during the war.

I think the US knows all this. And therefore, as an US ally in the region I would not trust into the US comign to my rescue if China goes loose cannons. Not in Taiwan. Not on the Phillipines, probably not even in Japan. With Trump in office, my faith would be even smaller. I think the US is no longer automatically the winner of a military confrontation with China. And the US will not go on another war adventure against an at least equal enemy if it expects to loose it anyway.

Jimbuna · 10-02-19, 10:20 AM

Lets hope your thoughts are never put to the test then

ikalugin · 10-03-19, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Whilst agreeing with the above I'd still put them third in overall capability behind the US and Russia.

Depends on the metric you use for miliary power.

In some they are indeed 3rd, for example in terms of strategic nuclear forces.

In some they are 2nd, for example in major surface combatants (or navy outside of nuclear submarines for that matter).

Jimbuna · 10-03-19, 05:46 AM

I was thinking in terms of overall capability.

mapuc · 10-03-19, 11:41 AM

So China has a military strength.

Let them fight a war against Russia and/or USA

then we can talk if they have a military strength.

A show of strength doesn't impress me

It's what they can do on the battlefield that impress me.

Markus

Skybird · 10-03-19, 01:06 PM

You make yourself sounding a bit cocky there, don't you think, mapuc?

The point of the parade was to show that they no longer depend on other nations delivering them high tech weaponry. They produce it themselves now.

And the third Vietnam war showed their willigness to take high own losses to win on the military battlefield. They delivered the Vietnamese quite a punishing - and that was thirty years ago,. with old hardware and old military dogmas.

The massacre on the Tienanmen square, killing around 10.000 as recent research says, shows their willingness to play it brutal, if they see the need.

China no longer just copies technical innovations of others. It now is a major source of especially computer and high tech innovation. Huawei is just one example. Foxconn as another.

Reasons enough to be worried. They are spreading thei influence not just by credit-lending and civilian harbours around the globe where they could supply military units as well. In Africa they build more and more military installations as well. Their determination in the South Chinese sea is beyond doubt. They create facts there. Since years. Convincingly enough that the US does nothing to seriously trying to stop them from what they are doing, although it violates international law.

Catfish · 10-03-19, 02:14 PM

CHina has recently changed from an autocratic system to a full-blown dictatorship. I have no idea how dictator and "party" sell (sic!) their "communism" to the citizens of the "People's Republic". There is so much dialectics in it that Newspeak cannot even describe it properly. Brain wash and re-education like with the Red Khmer in Cambodia comes to mind, certainly much more "civilised". I take it brute force and total surveillance are of course good arguments to "believe".
China literally owns Africa, and is able to strangle the US by the latter's debts.

And China will stop a nothing, there is no reluctancy exploiting citizens or the world, no social adaption, no dipomacy other than for exploiting and strategic reasons, it is all relentlessly planned. Clinton really opened Pandora's box around 2000. If someone read Liu Cixin's "Three Suns" trilogy, he will know what i mean. It may not be Cixin's opinion, but a warning.

ikalugin · 10-04-19, 12:44 AM

Putin: Russia is aiding China in them building their ballistic missile early warning system.

10-02-19, 05:54 AM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	China'S show of military strength https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49891769 No longer Russian made, but self-made. With friendly help by Western technology-transferring "partners". How idiotic the West was there when even volunteering in this role. Many observers and analysts these days say the pace at which the Chinese modernise and comes to power, is breathtaking and unprecedented in history. And they boost not just quality or just quantity - they boost both, especially navy and submarines. Where as in Europe, quality goes at the cost of quantity. Add to this the quckly weaving of an international network of military and logistic supply bases that could help military out of area operations. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-02-19, 07:54 AM	#2
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,473 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Whilst agreeing with the above I'd still put them third in overall capability behind the US and Russia. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

10-02-19, 08:30 AM	#3
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	They have a top class cyberwarfare division, and they must not scatter their conventional forces across so many places and along so long borders and along such long supply lines, as especially the US needs and wants to do. In other words: the US is, imo at least, hopelessly overstretched. The base network of the US is a valuable ressource during peace time and in low intensity regional conflicts. In case of a real serious big war, many of them will turn into ashes in the first hours of such a war, and what that means in negative setbacks for the overly complex supply chain and especially digital network capability of the US, maybe nobody really knows. What is known however is that US forces decisively depend on these networks and are worth only half their money if needing to go without them. Which means they maybe then would be no match for a numerically superior enemy who is technologically as advanced, or almost as, and is operating under his own ground-based air protection umbrella. The Chinese claim they can relatively reliably take out US carriers. And they have the numerical superiority in submarines in the region. They can turn areas of their interest in vicinity of their country into access denial zones, and I do not see the US being able to change that anymore. At the same time I do not share the almost monumental trust of the West in its anti.-missile capabilities. Since Gulf 91 it has shown time and again that anti-missiles systems do not get close to their claimed take-out quota, or make things even worse after having turned one big incoming object into a cloud of many small ones, like birdshot. At the same time, Russia or China woujkld not fire mostly relatiovely "harmless" improvised rockets like Hezbollah does in Lebanon - and even their rockets and missles get more advanced by now, thanks to Iran. And Israel's iron dome is not able to take them all out. And different to American society, the Chinese public is more willing to high own losses if that is what it takes to win a war. The political and leadership structure of China is another plus for them in case of conflicts. It means a much shorter and quicker chain of command, and faster reactions to strategic changes during the war. I think the US knows all this. And therefore, as an US ally in the region I would not trust into the US comign to my rescue if China goes loose cannons. Not in Taiwan. Not on the Phillipines, probably not even in Japan. With Trump in office, my faith would be even smaller. I think the US is no longer automatically the winner of a military confrontation with China. And the US will not go on another war adventure against an at least equal enemy if it expects to loose it anyway. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-02-19, 10:20 AM	#4
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,473 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Lets hope your thoughts are never put to the test then __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

10-03-19, 05:46 AM	#6
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,473 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	I was thinking in terms of overall capability. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

10-03-19, 11:41 AM	#7
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,535 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	So China has a military strength. Let them fight a war against Russia and/or USA then we can talk if they have a military strength. A show of strength doesn't impress me It's what they can do on the battlefield that impress me. Markus

10-03-19, 01:06 PM	#8
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	You make yourself sounding a bit cocky there, don't you think, mapuc? The point of the parade was to show that they no longer depend on other nations delivering them high tech weaponry. They produce it themselves now. And the third Vietnam war showed their willigness to take high own losses to win on the military battlefield. They delivered the Vietnamese quite a punishing - and that was thirty years ago,. with old hardware and old military dogmas. The massacre on the Tienanmen square, killing around 10.000 as recent research says, shows their willingness to play it brutal, if they see the need. China no longer just copies technical innovations of others. It now is a major source of especially computer and high tech innovation. Huawei is just one example. Foxconn as another. Reasons enough to be worried. They are spreading thei influence not just by credit-lending and civilian harbours around the globe where they could supply military units as well. In Africa they build more and more military installations as well. Their determination in the South Chinese sea is beyond doubt. They create facts there. Since years. Convincingly enough that the US does nothing to seriously trying to stop them from what they are doing, although it violates international law. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-03-19, 02:14 PM	#9
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,765 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	CHina has recently changed from an autocratic system to a full-blown dictatorship. I have no idea how dictator and "party" sell (sic!) their "communism" to the citizens of the "People's Republic". There is so much dialectics in it that Newspeak cannot even describe it properly. Brain wash and re-education like with the Red Khmer in Cambodia comes to mind, certainly much more "civilised". I take it brute force and total surveillance are of course good arguments to "believe". China literally owns Africa, and is able to strangle the US by the latter's debts. And China will stop a nothing, there is no reluctancy exploiting citizens or the world, no social adaption, no dipomacy other than for exploiting and strategic reasons, it is all relentlessly planned. Clinton really opened Pandora's box around 2000. If someone read Liu Cixin's "Three Suns" trilogy, he will know what i mean. It may not be Cixin's opinion, but a warning. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

10-04-19, 12:44 AM	#10
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Putin: Russia is aiding China in them building their ballistic missile early warning system. __________________ Grumpy as always.