Knuckles?

Manic Fred · 01-26-18, 07:16 AM

Is it possible to create them in DW?

FPSchazly · 01-26-18, 09:09 AM

No, they are not modeled in Dangerous Waters. Side note: I'm imagining what it would be like to do that since Dangerous Waters models ship dynamics and momentum very well, it would take a while for full rudder left to become full rudder right in terms of which direction the ship is actually going.

Manic Fred · 01-26-18, 10:57 AM

But when knuckles are possible in RL than it means that there can be put full rudder real fast...ergo it's not modelled in a realistic way in DW

FPSchazly · 01-26-18, 02:06 PM

Well I've heard full rudder at speed isn't usually what's done. Maybe Mr. ET2SN can chime in if he sees this.

p7p8 · 01-26-18, 06:33 PM

The fact that you can make knuckles in reality, doesn't mean they are effective against active homing torpedoes. In my opinion it's main reason why DW don't simulate knuckles.

Its like evading hits by rolling in games like witcher - effective in game but totaly unpractical in reality

ET2SN · 01-27-18, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

Maybe Mr. ET2SN can chime in if he sees this.

Huh? What..?

Look, I'll be honest. The first time I heard about knuckles as submarine canon was in the docs of the PC version of Red Storm Rising, which I played before I read the book.

This happened about four years into my six year enlistment, when I finally had enough free time to buy a PC.

In the Navy I did hear about broken knuckles, pig's knuckles, and knuckle sandwiches

but that was about it.

The other thing I would point out about DW is to look at its history, its basically a follow-on title of the Jane's sims which were a follow-on to the PC version of Harpoon which was a sanitized version of a tactics trainer for midshipmen.

At the end of the day, if you HAVE to use ninja moves in order to save your bacon- you aren't much of a ninja.

C-Wolf · 01-28-18, 10:32 AM

Knuckles were explained to us in sonar school, followed by an explanation of white knuckles -as in fear.

Knuckles are a by-product of flank speed, hard-over rudder orders, and intense prayer fed by imminent fear of death when a torpedo is in one's baffles. At that point, screw/blade cavitation is larger than a knuckle.

While knuckles might be of some use, (probably more psychological than tactical) noisemakers and decoys were much more effective and were the goto tactical choice when our sphincters were clenched so tight you couldn't drive a tack in with a sledgehammer. And prayer, lots of fervent prayer!

Polak2 · 01-28-18, 01:30 PM

This thread and replies contained here explain pretty well fundamental and philosophical difference of approach to simulations between Microprose and Jane's.

Playability vs. realism in the nutshell.

This philosophical difference of styles still persists in a way in the latest and recent incarnations and trends ....

ET2SN · 01-29-18, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C-Wolf

Knuckles were explained to us in sonar school, followed by an explanation of white knuckles -as in fear.

Knuckles are a by-product of flank speed, hard-over rudder orders, and intense prayer fed by imminent fear of death when a torpedo is in one's baffles. At that point, screw/blade cavitation is larger than a knuckle.

While knuckles might be of some use, (probably more psychological than tactical) noisemakers and decoys were much more effective and were the goto tactical choice when our sphincters were clenched so tight you couldn't drive a tack in with a sledgehammer. And prayer, lots of fervent prayer!

Yeah, but you guys took a lot of showers..

(former (reformed?) Mainer, btw

)

I started out on the Barbel, the lead ship of three (also Bonefish and Blueback) in her class. The Barbel class could be thought of as prototypes (kinda) after the USS Albacore. See, the the Navy wasn't 100% sold on Rickover's nuclear Navy in the mid 1950's, they wanted a fall-back just in case. What was neat about the B-Girls was that we could go pretty much as fast as a 637 if we set up the main motors and batteries just right, we just couldn't do it for very long. This was the main reason the class ran two main motors on a single shaft, two large battery wells, and three diesels.

That "high speed dash" capability was used as a part of the main mission for the B-girl class. They were to be used as "radar pickets" for the original SSGN's. This makes more sense if you dig around for videos of the old Snark missle. It needed someone to guide it to its target after it was launched.

There was a price for that kind of speed, however.

The hulls became rated as Hydrodynamically UNstable for high speed.
As I understand it, Barbel set the record in this dept. when she snap rolled 89 degrees during a high speed turn.

Think about that for a minute. What used to be tanks for water, fuel, and umm, waste suddenly turned into wall art.

The record stood at 89 degrees because it was later proven that if she had rolled 90 degrees or more there was no way she could have come back.

So, the whole point is this: If you want to induce a snap roll, go fast and then throw lots of rudder at it.

Kinda the same definition as a "knuckle".

p7p8 · 01-29-18, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET2SN

That "high speed dash" capability was used as a part of the main mission for the B-girl class. They were to be used as "radar pickets" for the original SSGN's. This makes more sense if you dig around for videos of the old Snark missle. It needed someone to guide it to its target after it was launched.

I didn't know about it. I just thought only USS Triton had this role in USN.

Manic Fred · 02-20-18, 03:13 AM

Sorry but i still don't understand if knuckles are now a real thing which DW doesn't simulate because of its engine limitations.
And in terms of rudder effect it looks to me that it doesn't react as quick as it should be.

p7p8 · 02-20-18, 08:03 AM

In my opinion its not matter of engine limitation. Its matter that "knuckles" have mythic opinion as effective remedium against any torpedo attack. Probably Sonalysts (as a professionals) just resigned from this feature.

Rudder in DW can be turned manualy - quite fast.

Polak2 · 02-20-18, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Sorry but i still don't understand if knuckles are now a real thing which DW doesn't simulate because of its engine limitations.

First of all not sure this was ever stated here if "high speed dashes" were creating knuckles as portrayed in Microprose's "Red Storm Rising"
Second knuckles in RSR generated acoustical disturbance aka. noise which attracted/spooked torps.
In DW this is accomplished by means of deploying active and passive countermeasures and I think this is how it is done in RL.

01-26-18, 07:16 AM	#1
Manic Fred Swabbie Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 12 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Knuckles? Is it possible to create them in DW?

01-26-18, 09:09 AM	#2
FPSchazly Good Hunting! Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Beantown Posts: 776 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 1	No, they are not modeled in Dangerous Waters. Side note: I'm imagining what it would be like to do that since Dangerous Waters models ship dynamics and momentum very well, it would take a while for full rudder left to become full rudder right in terms of which direction the ship is actually going. __________________ Your friendly neighborhood modern submarine YouTuber. My videos: Exclusive Look at Modern Naval Warfare! Dangerous Waters Liu Doctrine (LwAmi Learn to play Dangerous Waters

01-26-18, 02:06 PM	#4
FPSchazly Good Hunting! Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Beantown Posts: 776 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 1	Well I've heard full rudder at speed isn't usually what's done. Maybe Mr. ET2SN can chime in if he sees this. __________________ Your friendly neighborhood modern submarine YouTuber. My videos: Exclusive Look at Modern Naval Warfare! Dangerous Waters Liu Doctrine (LwAmi Learn to play Dangerous Waters

01-28-18, 10:32 AM	#7
C-Wolf Watch Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: New England Posts: 30 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Knuckles were explained to us in sonar school, followed by an explanation of white knuckles -as in fear. Knuckles are a by-product of flank speed, hard-over rudder orders, and intense prayer fed by imminent fear of death when a torpedo is in one's baffles. At that point, screw/blade cavitation is larger than a knuckle. While knuckles might be of some use, (probably more psychological than tactical) noisemakers and decoys were much more effective and were the goto tactical choice when our sphincters were clenched so tight you couldn't drive a tack in with a sledgehammer. And prayer, lots of fervent prayer! __________________ Sagire, Classis, Destructum!

01-26-18, 10:57 AM	#3
Manic Fred Swabbie Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 12 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	But when knuckles are possible in RL than it means that there can be put full rudder real fast...ergo it's not modelled in a realistic way in DW

01-26-18, 06:33 PM	#5
p7p8 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 742 Downloads: 136 Uploads: 6	The fact that you can make knuckles in reality, doesn't mean they are effective against active homing torpedoes. In my opinion it's main reason why DW don't simulate knuckles. Its like evading hits by rolling in games like witcher - effective in game but totaly unpractical in reality

01-28-18, 01:30 PM	#8
Polak2 Weps Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 371 Downloads: 60 Uploads: 0	This thread and replies contained here explain pretty well fundamental and philosophical difference of approach to simulations between Microprose and Jane's. Playability vs. realism in the nutshell. This philosophical difference of styles still persists in a way in the latest and recent incarnations and trends ....

02-20-18, 03:13 AM	#11
Manic Fred Swabbie Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 12 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Sorry but i still don't understand if knuckles are now a real thing which DW doesn't simulate because of its engine limitations. And in terms of rudder effect it looks to me that it doesn't react as quick as it should be.

02-20-18, 08:03 AM	#12
p7p8 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 742 Downloads: 136 Uploads: 6	In my opinion its not matter of engine limitation. Its matter that "knuckles" have mythic opinion as effective remedium against any torpedo attack. Probably Sonalysts (as a professionals) just resigned from this feature. Rudder in DW can be turned manualy - quite fast.