Let's talk about [old] submarine propeller designs (nothing confidential)

Castout · 01-13-17, 09:31 AM

Old Russian submarine propeller design

https://1drv.ms/i/s!Ag_CxMbMom_9h2733t0nKsoGzwB2

Old American submarine propeller design

https://1drv.ms/i/s!Ag_CxMbMom_9h29tNo2_jujBAP5G

The Russian design if I speculate correctly is meant to optimize speed for any given rotational speed of the propeller. This is achieved by pushing seawater outward on the propeller longitudinal tip which in turn will be pushed back by the propeller blades resulting in more water being pushed back generating more opposing force that propel the submarine forward.

The American design seems not as easy to guess because these kinds of stuff isn't my expertise. However, if I am to speculate, the ring is meant to prevent some seawater from being pushed outwardly by the tip of the propeller's blades. What this does is a bit unclear. One, it could be to maximize speed too by minimizing outwardly flow of propelled seawater. It could also to minimize cavitation by smoothing the flow direction of propelled water. It could also for both guesses. However, the ring seems very thin instead of elongated so it might very well be to minimize cavitation.

What do you think?

FPSchazly · 01-13-17, 09:39 AM

I would not consider that particular Victor-III prop design to be an old design, I would consider this to be an old design (from Alfa):

I am by no means a propeller expert or fluid dynamics voodoo witch doctor, but the design referenced in your first link seems to decrease the pressure along the leading edges of the propeller blade in order to reduce cavitation.

As to the ring around LA props (which may be getting into classified territory

), I imagine it's also there as a form of cavitation reduction to reduce the prop tip cavitation. I read an article a while ago stating that there are three forms of propellor cavitation, and cavitation at the tip is one of them. It's where the blade is rotating the fastest, so tipping over the blades, like with that Victor-III prop, seemingly increases prop area without increasing the speed of the blade as much.

Anyone well-versed in propellers, please feel free to correct my terminology.

Aktungbby · 01-13-17, 12:29 PM

Quote:

The American design seems not as easy to guess because these kinds of stuff isn't my expertise. However, if I am to speculate, the ring is meant to prevent some seawater from being pushed outwardly by the tip of the propeller's blades. What this does is a bit unclear. One, it could be to maximize speed too by minimizing outwardly flow of propelled seawater. It could also to minimize cavitation by smoothing the flow direction of propelled water. It could also for both guesses. However, the ring seems very thin instead of elongated so it might very well be to minimize cavitation.

What do you think?

No! No! that's (ring) to keep mile-long seine/gill fishing nets from tangling the propeller.... often sinking the fishing boat. http://www.prop1.org/2000/accident/1989/890712a1.htm & http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3687891/Portuguese-submarine-caught-net-French-fishing-boat-English-coast.html http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/fishing-boat-captain-says-a-russian-submarine-lurking-in-u-k-waters-snagged-his-net-and-nearly-dragged-him-under Seriously; it's a big problem for all submarine vs net fishing boats-there have been fatalities for years Look up "fishing boats snagged by submarines".

It's really bad!

FPSchazly · 01-13-17, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

No! No! that's (ring) to keep mile-long seine/gill fishing nets from tangling the propeller.... often sinking the fishing boat. http://www.prop1.org/2000/accident/1989/890712a1.htm & http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3687891/Portuguese-submarine-caught-net-French-fishing-boat-English-coast.html http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/fishing-boat-captain-says-a-russian-submarine-lurking-in-u-k-waters-snagged-his-net-and-nearly-dragged-him-under Seriously; it's a big problem for all submarine vs net fishing boats-there have been fatalities for years Look up "fishing boats snagged by submarines".

It's really bad!

Ah yes, that makes a lot of sense. At one point in time, I had considered it was to keep the towed from getting snagged in the propeller, as well.

Aktungbby · 01-13-17, 01:10 PM

I was being humorus

U were right the first time! Subs don't give a bilgerats ass about fishing boats...that's just 'collatertal damage'. Although I'd imagine getting tangled in a net causes 'cavitaion' too!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/shrouded-propulsor.htm

Quote:

A shrouded propulsor (not a 'ringed propeller') is a directional collar around the submarine's propeller. It lowers the passive sonar signature of the sub and provides improvement over exposed propeller designs in both efficiency. The Improved Los Angeles (SSN-751 onwards) have a shrouded propulsor, as do all subsequent classes of American attack submarines. At least one Russian KILO has had its propeller replaced by a shrouded propulsor, which is now used by new US and British nuclear submarines. A shrouded propulsor is identical to a standard shafted propeller, with a cylindrical ring of metal attached at the the tips of the propeller blades around the full circumference....Improved design in submarine screws (propellers) significantly reduces cavitation. Cavitation is reduced by the shroud, as the duct maintains higher pressure around the blade tips and prevents cavitation bubbles from forming. One method of improving the efficiency of propellers uses a pipe shroud to encase the propeller. This shroud or nozzle forces more of the water directly out from the propeller. And by ducting water flow through the shroud, tip vortices can be harnessed to provide thrust.

FPSchazly · 01-13-17, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

I was being humorus

U were right the first time! Subs don't give a bilgerats ass about fishing boats...that's just 'collatertal damage'. Although I'd imagine getting tangled in a net causes 'cavitaion' too!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/shrouded-propulsor.htm

Oh, very good haha you got me there. That was some straight faced dead-pan there!

Aktungbby · 01-13-17, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

Oh, very good haha you got me there. That was some straight faced dead-pan there!

What's really going through any passive sonarman's cavitation bubbles head:

Kapitan · 01-13-17, 04:26 PM

if you want a prop design have a look at B414 Danil Morisovisky a Victor III (improved dubbed IV) has counter rotating propellers

Victor III in dry dock in the 90's

Counter rotating props which have been tangled up close up of the screw on the Victor III

Prior to scrapping this is the back end of the K222 the lone papa class or Project 661

Romeo class submarine showing her shrouded screws later veriation is the type 033 ming

Back end of the beluga class !

Back end of the Akula I

Project 705 Lira or Alfa to you and me

B396 Tango Class by Blair shaw, on Flickr

Tango class submarine B396 Moscow showing triple screw design with shrouded screws

p7p8 · 01-13-17, 05:22 PM

Very nice photos Kapitan!

Have you more?

Kapitan · 01-13-17, 05:26 PM

I think what you find is that the Russians went for speed in their submarines not so much stealth, the Americans went for lower speeds but more emphasis of being quiet.

If you look at the designs From the Thresher permit class forwards you notice this here is a submarines that has substantial speed of around 30 knots yet at the slow end they are a lot quieter than the Russian boats.

Prop design has a lot to do with this, if you look above the Romeo has twin 4 blade screws which would make a racket at any speed, and the counter rotating screws i don't think give much more quieting effect and likely cause pressure waves between the blades thus creating a slight noise increase in that area.

Americans / West have always tried to out do in terms of quality the Russians knew they couldn't match the tech platform to platform so created a wide range of measures to defeat the technology advances of the west.

None are more prevalent than a lone Project 877V Boat assigned to the black sea fleet in Sevastopol, here is a submarine that steps outside the idea of "good enough" and opens a new door the results of the trails are still classified the submarine is still active it was launched in 1990 and forms along side her newer and more advanced project 636 sisters the back bone of the submarine fleet in the black sea.

Alrosa is one of a kind submarine she is fitted with a pump jet propulsor almost like a mini jet engine if you would, its unclear how much noise reduction you get out of the modification but i would guess as they have not fitted it to newer boats or new builds including the Lada class that this trials boat wasn't too successful some pictures illustrate the system in bits and pieces.

Taken from a screen grap but this is what type of screw the Project 877 and 636 boats have normally and infact still use

Kapitan · 01-13-17, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8

Very nice photos Kapitan!

Have you more?

Loads are you looking for something specific ? or specific type of boat ?

p7p8 · 01-13-17, 06:26 PM

Oh, I see, you have superb link to photos on signature

Kapitan · 01-13-17, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8

Oh, I see, you have superb link to photos on signature

Thanks have many off grid pictures and books laying around, still hunting down a load of books, but i do recommend Wayne freys book Russian submarines guardians of the motherland

p7p8 · 01-13-17, 06:37 PM

Have you photos of Udaloy? I can't find any pictures from dry dock vith visible bow sonar (polinom complex)

Kapitan · 01-13-17, 06:58 PM

This is the only one I have been able to dig up just now, i will have a look through some of my books maybe some in there in the morning but right now its nearly midnight and i am off to sleep il keep the page active and if i dig up some stuff il post it in here.

01-13-17, 09:31 AM	#1
Castout Silent Hunter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jakarta Posts: 4,794 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 6	Let's talk about [old] submarine propeller designs (nothing confidential) Old Russian submarine propeller design https://1drv.ms/i/s!Ag_CxMbMom_9h2733t0nKsoGzwB2 Old American submarine propeller design https://1drv.ms/i/s!Ag_CxMbMom_9h29tNo2_jujBAP5G The Russian design if I speculate correctly is meant to optimize speed for any given rotational speed of the propeller. This is achieved by pushing seawater outward on the propeller longitudinal tip which in turn will be pushed back by the propeller blades resulting in more water being pushed back generating more opposing force that propel the submarine forward. The American design seems not as easy to guess because these kinds of stuff isn't my expertise. However, if I am to speculate, the ring is meant to prevent some seawater from being pushed outwardly by the tip of the propeller's blades. What this does is a bit unclear. One, it could be to maximize speed too by minimizing outwardly flow of propelled seawater. It could also to minimize cavitation by smoothing the flow direction of propelled water. It could also for both guesses. However, the ring seems very thin instead of elongated so it might very well be to minimize cavitation. What do you think? __________________ My blog: http://exposingsingapore.wordpress.com/

01-13-17, 09:39 AM	#2
FPSchazly Good Hunting! Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Beantown Posts: 776 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 1	I would not consider that particular Victor-III prop design to be an old design, I would consider this to be an old design (from Alfa): I am by no means a propeller expert or fluid dynamics voodoo witch doctor, but the design referenced in your first link seems to decrease the pressure along the leading edges of the propeller blade in order to reduce cavitation. As to the ring around LA props (which may be getting into classified territory ), I imagine it's also there as a form of cavitation reduction to reduce the prop tip cavitation. I read an article a while ago stating that there are three forms of propellor cavitation, and cavitation at the tip is one of them. It's where the blade is rotating the fastest, so tipping over the blades, like with that Victor-III prop, seemingly increases prop area without increasing the speed of the blade as much. Anyone well-versed in propellers, please feel free to correct my terminology. __________________ Your friendly neighborhood modern submarine YouTuber. My videos: Exclusive Look at Modern Naval Warfare! Dangerous Waters Liu Doctrine (LwAmi Learn to play Dangerous Waters

01-13-17, 04:26 PM	#8
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	if you want a prop design have a look at B414 Danil Morisovisky a Victor III (improved dubbed IV) has counter rotating propellers Victor III in dry dock in the 90's Counter rotating props which have been tangled up close up of the screw on the Victor III Prior to scrapping this is the back end of the K222 the lone papa class or Project 661 Romeo class submarine showing her shrouded screws later veriation is the type 033 ming Back end of the beluga class ! Back end of the Akula I Project 705 Lira or Alfa to you and me B396 Tango Class by Blair shaw, on Flickr Tango class submarine B396 Moscow showing triple screw design with shrouded screws __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

01-13-17, 05:26 PM	#10
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	I think what you find is that the Russians went for speed in their submarines not so much stealth, the Americans went for lower speeds but more emphasis of being quiet. If you look at the designs From the Thresher permit class forwards you notice this here is a submarines that has substantial speed of around 30 knots yet at the slow end they are a lot quieter than the Russian boats. Prop design has a lot to do with this, if you look above the Romeo has twin 4 blade screws which would make a racket at any speed, and the counter rotating screws i don't think give much more quieting effect and likely cause pressure waves between the blades thus creating a slight noise increase in that area. Americans / West have always tried to out do in terms of quality the Russians knew they couldn't match the tech platform to platform so created a wide range of measures to defeat the technology advances of the west. None are more prevalent than a lone Project 877V Boat assigned to the black sea fleet in Sevastopol, here is a submarine that steps outside the idea of "good enough" and opens a new door the results of the trails are still classified the submarine is still active it was launched in 1990 and forms along side her newer and more advanced project 636 sisters the back bone of the submarine fleet in the black sea. Alrosa is one of a kind submarine she is fitted with a pump jet propulsor almost like a mini jet engine if you would, its unclear how much noise reduction you get out of the modification but i would guess as they have not fitted it to newer boats or new builds including the Lada class that this trials boat wasn't too successful some pictures illustrate the system in bits and pieces. Taken from a screen grap but this is what type of screw the Project 877 and 636 boats have normally and infact still use __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

01-13-17, 06:58 PM	#15
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	This is the only one I have been able to dig up just now, i will have a look through some of my books maybe some in there in the morning but right now its nearly midnight and i am off to sleep il keep the page active and if i dig up some stuff il post it in here. __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

01-13-17, 05:22 PM	#9
p7p8 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 742 Downloads: 136 Uploads: 6	Very nice photos Kapitan! Have you more?

01-13-17, 06:26 PM	#12
p7p8 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 742 Downloads: 136 Uploads: 6	Oh, I see, you have superb link to photos on signature

01-13-17, 06:37 PM	#14
p7p8 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 742 Downloads: 136 Uploads: 6	Have you photos of Udaloy? I can't find any pictures from dry dock vith visible bow sonar (polinom complex)