Canadian submarine returns to port again. Buyers remorse anybody?

speed150mph · 06-05-16, 02:28 AM

After having to pull in to an American port, and later returned to Halifax after suffering a battery failure in March, HMCS Windsor is back in port with a problem with one of her diesels.

The old Upholder class subs Canada bought from the UK way back have been in dry dock longer then they have touched salt water. I don't know about the rest of my countrymen but I for one am suffering buyers remorse. I am sick of seeing the government poor more and more money into subs which are nearing the end of their service life and have proven to be unreliable, and the fact the navy hasn't even planned a replacement makes me even sicker.

Can I ask you guys why is it that a first world country, in fact the second largest country in the world has a smaller and less capable submarine force then countries like Iran and Vietnam? Can I ask this double when you consider that we are the country located smack dab between two major rivalling superpowers that put a lot of money into their navy? We hear all the warnings that russia is putting more subs to sea, and I bet that the canadian government has absolutely no clue how many of them are sitting in our arctic waters right now.

We need to upgrade our submarine force. We need to do like Australia did and put the word out there that we are looking. Open up the market for shipyards, foreign and domestic, to produce us with designs for a new SSK or even an SSN that can defend our coasts, pacific, atlantic, and arctic. Because when your the guy stuck between two big guys looking to fight, you better know how to punch. Otherwise when the punches start flying, your the one getting hurt most....

u crank · 06-05-16, 07:44 AM

I try not to think about it.

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Originally Posted by speed150mph

Can I ask you guys why is it that a first world country, in fact the second largest country in the world has a smaller and less capable submarine force then countries like Iran and Vietnam?

There are a number of reasons. Canadian citizens enjoy a quality of life that far exceeds most nations, certainly Iran and Vietnam. That quality costs money and there are only so many ways to cut the money pie.

Second, we are neighbors and friends with a country with the most powerful military on earth. So why bother spending billions on subs when the Americans have a capable force. What are we going to do? Watch them?

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We hear all the warnings that russia is putting more subs to sea, and I bet that the canadian government has absolutely no clue how many of them are sitting in our arctic waters right now.

No but I bet the Americans do.

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I don't know about the rest of my countrymen but I for one am suffering buyers remorse.

I couldn't agree more. Dumb idea concocted by politicians with no clue.

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We need to upgrade our submarine force. We need to do like Australia did and put the word out there that we are looking.

Good idea but there's that money thing again. We are a big country but with only 36,000,000 people. USA has 10 times that many.

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even an SSN

I don't think we will ever see that happen. Besides the cost there are treaties in place that could prevent that.

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Under the 1958 US–UK Mutual Defence Agreement, the US had the right to block the sale of submarine nuclear reactors by the United Kingdom to any third party (i.e. Canada), and under a 1959 agreement between the US and Canada the US had the right to block the purchase of submarine nuclear reactors by Canada from any third party (i.e. the United Kingdom or France).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada-class_submarine

The number one reason why the Americans would not want Canadian SSNs under the Arctic ice is that for safety reasons they would have to disclose the positions of their subs. And that is not going to happen.

speed150mph · 06-05-16, 10:18 AM

When your government has enough money that is starts throwing it away at hockey arenas and stadiums and renovating Trudaue's crib then I think we can afford to spend a little money in self defense. Plus some of them don't cost that much and are still capable boats. Look at the kilo or the 212, and they could be less if we build an indigenous submarine. God knows we probably spent more refitting the Victoria class then what it would cost to buy new.

As for the argument that the us will protect us, i ask is it wise for us to rely whole heartedly on a country that is spread thin across the world and seems to only have interest in issues that are in their own self interest. No it not. It like saying I'm gunna leave my door unlocked at night because I live to a guy who has guns who said he will come running if I'm in trouble.

And as for the us-uk-canada defense agreement preventing the sale of naval power reactors to canada, I point out that they do only cover the sale from third parties. Canada has experience with nuclear power, designing and building one of the safest and most stabile reactors in the world (Candu reactors). Now if we approached the engineers we have in the field, and have them working with the navy, then how long would it take to design our own naval reactor. We could have an SSN, but I agree it's unlikely, and we'd be better building SSK

em2nought · 06-05-16, 01:02 PM

Man, if I were Canada I'd just take advantage of the arsenal of democracy(or military industrial complex). Maybe have every citizen a rifleman, armed with a Mosin Nagant, and that's about it for $pending. Let the southern neighbors do the rest.

Oberon · 06-21-16, 09:13 PM

I'm beginning to wonder if the MOD just left them in a rusty bath-tub during their storage years, because they certainly didn't seem this broken during the short time we used them...ok, we had to spend £9million to get the things to be able to fire torpedoes but after that I don't recall there being any major faults with them, certainly not to the extent that the RCN has been suffering.

06-05-16, 02:28 AM	#1
speed150mph Electrician's Mate Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 132 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	Canadian submarine returns to port again. Buyers remorse anybody? After having to pull in to an American port, and later returned to Halifax after suffering a battery failure in March, HMCS Windsor is back in port with a problem with one of her diesels. The old Upholder class subs Canada bought from the UK way back have been in dry dock longer then they have touched salt water. I don't know about the rest of my countrymen but I for one am suffering buyers remorse. I am sick of seeing the government poor more and more money into subs which are nearing the end of their service life and have proven to be unreliable, and the fact the navy hasn't even planned a replacement makes me even sicker. Can I ask you guys why is it that a first world country, in fact the second largest country in the world has a smaller and less capable submarine force then countries like Iran and Vietnam? Can I ask this double when you consider that we are the country located smack dab between two major rivalling superpowers that put a lot of money into their navy? We hear all the warnings that russia is putting more subs to sea, and I bet that the canadian government has absolutely no clue how many of them are sitting in our arctic waters right now. We need to upgrade our submarine force. We need to do like Australia did and put the word out there that we are looking. Open up the market for shipyards, foreign and domestic, to produce us with designs for a new SSK or even an SSN that can defend our coasts, pacific, atlantic, and arctic. Because when your the guy stuck between two big guys looking to fight, you better know how to punch. Otherwise when the punches start flying, your the one getting hurt most.... __________________ Americans make better submarines? No my friend, Russia makes better submarines, Americans just make better computers

06-05-16, 10:18 AM	#3
speed150mph Electrician's Mate Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 132 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	When your government has enough money that is starts throwing it away at hockey arenas and stadiums and renovating Trudaue's crib then I think we can afford to spend a little money in self defense. Plus some of them don't cost that much and are still capable boats. Look at the kilo or the 212, and they could be less if we build an indigenous submarine. God knows we probably spent more refitting the Victoria class then what it would cost to buy new. As for the argument that the us will protect us, i ask is it wise for us to rely whole heartedly on a country that is spread thin across the world and seems to only have interest in issues that are in their own self interest. No it not. It like saying I'm gunna leave my door unlocked at night because I live to a guy who has guns who said he will come running if I'm in trouble. And as for the us-uk-canada defense agreement preventing the sale of naval power reactors to canada, I point out that they do only cover the sale from third parties. Canada has experience with nuclear power, designing and building one of the safest and most stabile reactors in the world (Candu reactors). Now if we approached the engineers we have in the field, and have them working with the navy, then how long would it take to design our own naval reactor. We could have an SSN, but I agree it's unlikely, and we'd be better building SSK __________________ Americans make better submarines? No my friend, Russia makes better submarines, Americans just make better computers

06-05-16, 01:02 PM	#4
em2nought Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 3,485 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Man, if I were Canada I'd just take advantage of the arsenal of democracy(or military industrial complex). Maybe have every citizen a rifleman, armed with a Mosin Nagant, and that's about it for $pending. Let the southern neighbors do the rest. __________________ em2nought is ecstatic garbage!

06-21-16, 09:13 PM	#5
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	I'm beginning to wonder if the MOD just left them in a rusty bath-tub during their storage years, because they certainly didn't seem this broken during the short time we used them...ok, we had to spend £9million to get the things to be able to fire torpedoes but after that I don't recall there being any major faults with them, certainly not to the extent that the RCN has been suffering.