Tips on stalking the Diesels?

[Stewy1]

Hi everyone,

I know this has been covered many times before - but wasn't sure where to look.

What are your tips to stalking diesel boats?

I was in a Flt1 688 boat (3kts at 800ft - between Sri Lanka and India), looking for a Pakistani Agosta. Using the "show truth" mode (it was a 4 hour game!), I got to about 5-6 miles away - off its rear-left (sorry, not sure of the nautical terms) but, switching "show truth off:, Sonar picked up nothing. I was on the same thermal layer, about 500ft below him.

Next thing, it snapped off 4 torpedoes and I had to shoot and bolt (luckily I won the day!)

Questions are, can a 688 pick up a diesel-electric going at 3kts - or is it nearly impossible?

Do you have any tips to detect quiet contacts?

Thanks guys!
Stew

[FPSchazly]

I believe the correct term would be off his port quarter.

In my experience, diesel/electrics are reaallly quiet. In stock DW, I've gotten within 2 or 3 nautical miles of a Kilo without even knowing it. I was in a Seawolf and I didn't see anything on my sonar. If you're pretty confident it's only you and the Kilo out there, you may want to try active search. But even then, it's always worrisome to give away your position if you don't have to. It's tricky for sure.

[Stewy1]

Thanks FPSchazly for that info - I've enjoyed your tutorials on YouTube too!

[ReallyDedPoet]

Welcome to SUBSIM Stew

[Stewy1]

Thanks for the kind welcomes, guys - though this isn't my first time on SubSim (Could the (kind) mods merge me with the Stewy username?)

I had a bit more luck tracking (and killing) the Xia SSBN in the Trafalgar, HMS Tireless, off the West Australian coast. A good couple hours of stalking, going up and down across layers and checking the different arrays to find him.

Nukes vs. Nukes is a little easier than Nuke vs. Diesels!

DW is still a great game, 9 years on! (and the Modders of DWX/RA have made it an excellent game!)

Cheers guys
Stew

[adrians69]

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

I believe the correct term would be off his port quarter.

In my experience, diesel/electrics are reaallly quiet. In stock DW, I've gotten within 2 or 3 nautical miles of a Kilo without even knowing it. I was in a Seawolf and I didn't see anything on my sonar. If you're pretty confident it's only you and the Kilo out there, you may want to try active search. But even then, it's always worrisome to give away your position if you don't have to. It's tricky for sure.

Just want to say great vids on DW and SC. Very informative. I have subscribed. Thanks for the tutorials also

Adrian

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by Stewy1

Hi everyone,

I know this has been covered many times before - but wasn't sure where to look.

What are your tips to stalking diesel boats?

I was in a Flt1 688 boat (3kts at 800ft - between Sri Lanka and India), looking for a Pakistani Agosta. Using the "show truth" mode (it was a 4 hour game!), I got to about 5-6 miles away - off its rear-left (sorry, not sure of the nautical terms) but, switching "show truth off:, Sonar picked up nothing. I was on the same thermal layer, about 500ft below him.

Next thing, it snapped off 4 torpedoes and I had to shoot and bolt (luckily I won the day!)

Questions are, can a 688 pick up a diesel-electric going at 3kts - or is it nearly impossible?

Do you have any tips to detect quiet contacts?

Thanks guys!
Stew

Diesel boats are very hard to pick up, but not impossible. You may get some questionable sound readings from sonar, but it will rarely be enough to classify one and auto-crew is pretty useless in detecting diesels. The best method I have is to take a questionable signal and occasionally use my HF active sonar intermittently to see if I pick anything up. HF has a short range, but if you are close enough, it will bust out a Kilo just as well as a nuke boat and unlike the standard active MF sonar, you do not immediately give your position away when you use it.

Another thing about Kilos is the fact that the absence of a towed array gives them a nice baffle to hide behind. Get behind one and you can go at flank and fire all tubes and he won't know unless he does a "Crazy Ivan" or until the torpedoes hit. The problem is that there is enough traffic to make this somewhat prohibitive. The Kilo may not hear you, but his buddies will.

One needs to be patient and implacable when dealing with Kilos. The big thing is getting close enough to use HF Sonar to confirm his presence.

[Stewy1]

Thanks for the tips, guys. Just as an addon question - how do you guys track boomers for long periods?

I "intercepted" a Typhoon as it was transiting north at 3-4 knots - but every time I manoeuvred to get behind it/use all of the sonar arrays, it slowly got away from me - managed to track it for about 2 hours, but then lost contact...

Are Typhoons "deaf" to their sterns? Could I have sped up to catch it, then slowed again? I'm always worried about copping a Shkval - being detected means being dead with those things!

Cheers
Stew

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by Stewy1

Thanks for the tips, guys. Just as an addon question - how do you guys track boomers for long periods?

I "intercepted" a Typhoon as it was transiting north at 3-4 knots - but every time I manoeuvred to get behind it/use all of the sonar arrays, it slowly got away from me - managed to track it for about 2 hours, but then lost contact...

Are Typhoons "deaf" to their sterns? Could I have sped up to catch it, then slowed again? I'm always worried about copping a Shkval - being detected means being dead with those things!

Cheers
Stew

Typhoons have towed arrays, so there is no baffle to hide behind. There is also no real reason to worry about Shkvals. I have never seen the AI fire one. These seem to be more of a human player tool/threat than anything. As far as losing the Typhoon, was there a thermal layer near the current depth of your track? If so, that is probably where you lost him. If your towed array is deployed too far out, it will dip below a thermal layer when you move at very slow speeds. Likewise, if the Typhoon transitioned the layer and you have all sensors on one side of the layer, you will eventually lose him or only maintain intermittent contact.

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

Typhoons have towed arrays, so there is no baffle to hide behind.

No, they don't.
The Typhoon class only has a hull sonar, under the torpedo room.

Edit: Nevermind, it seems they do have a towed array. First time I stumbled upon this.Maybe the older ones didn't have them, not sure.
Edit2: As I suspected, only TK17 (Archangelsk) and TK20 (Severstal') have the 'Pelamida' towed array.

It would be interesting to know if Dangerous Waters makes a difference there.
From what I remember, the Severstal' doesn't have a towed array in the game but I'm not completely sure.

[FPSchazly]

On the topic of Shkvals, you should definitely worry about those. I've been sunk, or at least hit, by quite a few AI Akulas launching Shkvals at me. Not sure if the Typhoon carries Shkvals, though.

I'm also not sure how the game models AI sonar. Do they explicitly model them using a towed? Or is it just like "handicapped" so the AI has further detection ranges on the other arays?

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

No, they don't.
The Typhoon class only has a hull sonar, under the torpedo room.

Edit: Nevermind, it seems they do have a towed array. First time I stumbled upon this.Maybe the older ones didn't have them, not sure.
Edit2: As I suspected, only TK17 (Archangelsk) and TK20 (Severstal') have the 'Pelamida' towed array.

It would be interesting to know if Dangerous Waters makes a difference there.
From what I remember, the Severstal' doesn't have a towed array in the game but I'm not completely sure.

I have LWAMI installed. Let me double check to see exactly what the Typhoons have in that mod.


EDIT: Hmm...in LWAMI, none of the Typhoons have a towed array.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

I have LWAMI installed. Let me double check to see exactly what the Typhoons have in that mod.


EDIT: Hmm...in LWAMI, none of the Typhoons have a towed array.

I have LWAMI (v 3.11) installed too.

Did you read that from the database directly? Because I can't (I haven't the editor for the database) but... In the "Platform Reference Guide for LWAMI 3.11", an xls file supplied with the mod, under the Russia section, it says that Typhoons are equipped with a TA and they do not carry the Shkval (only Oscars, Akulas, Victors, Alfas and Ladas could be equipped with Shkvals).

I'd like to clarify these points...

EDIT: Also, in LWAMI 3.11 the range of the MAD detonator on Shkval is equal to 250 meters insted of the 500 meters in std DW. This, plus the fact that in LWAMI, AI submarines engages you much sooner than in std DW (because in std DW they first have to completly ID you where in LWAMI is no more the case) means that a an AI launched Shkval against you is "fatal" only if the AI platform firing it has a solid TMA solution on you.

I remeber that in a mission while on Russian (hostile, I was in a 688i) waters I was detected and sunk by a Victor that fired on me. He neeed to fire 3 torpedoes and only the 3rd striked (they all was SUBROC). But while watching the replay with Truth On I was surprised to discover that I was detected and fired upon by another Russian sub that was around the general location of the Victor and that I was obliviuos about (I'm not sure but IIRC he was an Akula). He fired something like 3 or 4 shkval, one at time, and he should have got a real bad solution on me because the Shkval all missed passing far from my position (about 1 or 2 nm on my sides).

But that was very scary witnessing this things running like hell across the map!
If they are well aimed you are already dead, like a Kenshiro victim, lol!

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by banryu79

I have LWAMI (v 3.11) installed too.

Did you read that from the database directly? Because I can't (I haven't the editor for the database) but... In the "Platform Reference Guide for LWAMI 3.11", an xls file supplied with the mod, under the Russia section, it says that Typhoons are equipped with a TA and they do not carry the Shkval (only Oscars, Akulas, Victors, Alfas and Ladas could be equipped with Shkvals).

I'd like to clarify these points...

Yes, I read the Objects.eod database. The DWEdit tool comes with LWAMI. It is in he /LAMI_Mod/FileTools directory. I also stand corrected as I misread one of the database entries. They do have towed arrays. However, there are only three Typhoons; Dmitri Donskoy, Arkhangelsk and Severstal'

EDIT: Also, in LWAMI 3.11 the range of the MAD detonator on Shkval is equal to 250 meters insted of the 500 meters in std DW. This, plus the fact that in LWAMI, AI submarines engages you much sooner than in std DW (because in std DW they first have to completly ID you where in LWAMI is no more the case) means that a an AI launched Shkval against you is "fatal" only if the AI platform firing it has a solid TMA solution on you.

I remeber that in a mission while on Russian (hostile, I was in a 688i) waters I was detected and sunk by a Victor that fired on me. He neeed to fire 3 torpedoes and only the 3rd striked (they all was SUBROC). But while watching the replay with Truth On I was surprised to discover that I was detected and fired upon by another Russian sub that was around the general location of the Victor and that I was obliviuos about (I'm not sure but IIRC he was an Akula). He fired something like 3 or 4 shkval, one at time, and he should have got a real bad solution on me because the Shkval all missed passing far from my position (about 1 or 2 nm on my sides).

But that was very scary witnessing this things running like hell across the map!
If they are well aimed you are already dead, like a Kenshiro victim, lol!

In LWAMI, any American sub going faster than 3 knots will be busted by Russian sensors. Also, firing at you without a good solution kind of makes sense, from an alternate line of thinking since the AI knows which units are their own. It is something like, "That contact shouldn't be there. Kill it."

I have been fortunate to never have a Shkval come after me. The only possible counter I can see in dealing with them is to remember that they are unguided and hope one is deep enough and the torpedo is far enough away that one can blow the ballast at flank speed and squeak by. It is nigh impossible to dodge a 200-knot torpedo. You would have to be at its max range to even try a course change to avoid it without a fast depth change. Its maximum range is 6NM and it needs the first mile to arm. It takes 20 seconds to reach arming distance and 1 minute, 40 seconds to make the 6NM run. That is a very small window to try and get out of the way.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

It takes 20 seconds to reach arming distance and 1 minute, 40 seconds to make the 6NM run. That is a very small window to try and get out of the way.

Well, since in LWAMI it's MAD detonator has only a 250 m. range you have about 1 and half a minute to clear that space (with a movement normal to the Shkval vector)... Maybe still quite feasible at flank speed if you keep your head (but then you have made a lot of noise in the region and more evil will arrive)...

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

In LWAMI, any American sub going faster than 3 knots will be busted by Russian sensors.

Well, I don't think is so simple... you sill have to consider the tactical situation, ranges in play, SSP, sensors and baffle areas as well as initial intelligence for the platforms and relative speeds...