We tortured some folks.

08-02-14, 07:15 PM

We did some things that were contrary to our values.

Now not wanting to go through the whole debate with people who think torture is acceptable and the useless information it gained was worth the indelible stain it has left on the US.
This is to explore the "special relationship".
Will the senate agree to Britains request to censor the parts which deal with Britains role in this fiaso?
It is important to Britain as it looks like they will face massive payouts through the British courts if their role in gross violations of human rights(war crimes)is confirmed by their allies.

Oberon · 08-02-14, 09:11 PM

I think this thread will be full of rational, calm discourse with a welcoming embrace of American and European viewpoints.

Meanwhile back in reality, I'm not really surprised, a good nod to Obama for bringing it up, even if he hasn't managed to sort Gitmo yet, but it's a step forward in my opinion.
Of course it's going to be a lot of egg on face for the UK, but we've had that coming for a while, can't have your cake and eat it, and we're just going to have to man up and take the lawsuits as they come.

Of course, there are going to be plenty that state that this was all done in the interest of the protection of the public against terrorists, but they tend to then tie themselves in knots when that same arguement is used against certain newspaper reporters and whistle blowers. Again, can't have your cake...

Naturally though, Obama really doesn't stand a chance, the guy could walk on water and the Republicans would decry him for not swimming with the 'good honest Christian American folk', so I don't expect him to be remembered fondly for this action on this forum...heck, I don't expect him to be remembered fondly on this forum at all, so there you have it.

Anyway, I'm sure that this discussion will go absolutely smoothly and not need moderator attention at all.

Armistead · 08-02-14, 10:35 PM

Obama's too busy blowing up civilians with drones to be seen as a hero on the torture front or to complain about Israel. I mean, I'm all for drones, but with him complaining about torture or Israel for basically doing the same thing rather hypocritical. I imagine children blown up with a drone is torture for them to go their lives disfigured in pain...

Jimbuna · 08-03-14, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Anyway, I'm sure that this discussion will go absolutely smoothly and not need moderator attention at all.

Most definitely

Catfish · 08-03-14, 06:34 AM

Has been in the press here for years, nothing new.
Germany allowed the CIA planes to cross german airspace to Poland for torturing outside of the US, so nothing to boast or criticize about in Germany - we knew exactly what this was for.

After all the hubbub, or better the lack thereof in anglo-saxon space, i guess it will all end like the "Hornberger Schiessen"

(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornberger_Schie%C3%9Fen)

"It is always difficult to judge political decisions, when their attainability lies far in the future. This is why i think that any political movement may never be judged by its ambitions (~goals?) it boasts about, but by the means it uses for its implementation."
Werner Heisenberg, german physician (1901 – 1976)

08-03-14, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Germany allowed the CIA planes to cross german airspace to Poland for torturing outside of the US, so nothing to boast or criticize about in Germany - we knew exactly what this was for.

Yes, but this relates to British territory being used for the torture, British officials being directly involved in the torture ...and more importantly British politicians repeatedly going on record to lie about it.
Plus of course the looming prospect of British taxpayers having to pay large amounts of compensation for it.

kranz · 08-03-14, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yes, but this relates to British territory being used for the torture, British officials being directly involved in the torture ...and more importantly British politicians repeatedly going on record to lie about it.
Plus of course the looming prospect of British taxpayers having to pay large amounts of compensation for it.

I replaced British with Polish and got the same.
The CIA gave us 15 millions USD and we got sued for 230 thousands Euros.
Seems a good deal. Oh wait...

Rockstar · 08-06-14, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

We did some things that were contrary to our values.

Now not wanting to go through the whole debate with people who think torture is acceptable and the useless information it gained was worth the indelible stain it has left on the US.

Then why did you even bother confronting others and bother them with your opinion about torture?

Quote:

This is to explore the "special relationship".
Will the senate agree to Britains request to censor the parts which deal with Britains role in this fiaso?
It is important to Britain as it looks like they will face massive payouts through the British courts if their role in gross violations of human rights(war crimes)is confirmed by their allies.

If a government uses torture as a means to obtain information. Then according to your way of thinking it must therefore be justifiable. As your own words on another topic leads me to believe you contend no one should argue with what the governement says.

Quote:
Rockstar: Let it be known to one and all here Israel does have my full support in their mission.
Tribesman: So when your government says some Israeli actions are indefensible and unjustifiable you are willing to try and justify and defend those actions.

.

08-06-14, 12:04 PM

Nice fail Rockstar

problems with English again?

I think you should have taken your own words on board....

Farked up as some of my writing skills and reasoning etc etc and so forth may be.

You farked up on them again.

If a government uses torture as a means to obtain information. Then according to your way of thinking it must therefore be justifiable.
No justifiable is justifiable, something is justifiable or it isn't.
The government spent a long time trying to justify torture, it had a swarm of fans on this forum trying to justify it too.
Now it has said oooops, we got it wrong
I wonder if all its fans will also say ooops, we got it wrong.

As your own words on another topic leads me to believe you contend no one should argue with what the governement says.

"are you willing" does not mean "you shouldn't" , it simply questions your wisdom in doing so considering the specifics of the subject in question and the context of those specifics.
Since in this case the government has completely reversed its views, which one of its opposing views are you going to agree with simply because it is a government that had it?

In the matter where you are quoting from.
If a party who as a matter of routine goes to great lengths in its attempts to justify actions by another party decides on this specific case to not even attempt a justification, do you think it is wise for you to attempt a justification of those specifics anyway?

Catfish · 08-06-14, 01:06 PM

"It is always difficult to judge political decisions, when their attainability lies far in the future. This is why i think that any nation may never be judged by its goals and values it boasts about, but by the means it uses for its implementation."
Werner Heisenberg (1901 – 1976)

Doesn't this say all that needs to be said ?
Loss of credibility, from drones and cynically-called "collateral damage", to eavesdropping own and foreign common people (and even the own senate), to torture.
What "freedom" are we talking about ? Not that our own government does not the same things, or at least tries to. Vassals indeed.
What is happening now has been the wet dream of Gestapo and Stasi. They were amateurs, in comparison.

It seems the new USA are much more anti-americanistic themselves, than their worst critics in Europe, when it comes to comparing their founding principles with what is common practice now. Seriously, what happened to the anglo-saxon world after WW2, that it became what it is ?
Thousands of cameras in London, visiting Orwell's house makes you a suspect - what the hell is going on there

Is 9/11 the cause ? This event serves as a justification for anything that used to be criminal before, under normal conditions.

MH · 08-06-14, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Is 9/11 the cause ? This event serves as a justification for anything that used to be criminal before, under normal conditions.

It does not in hindsight as it seems quite often.. so yes this could apply:
"It is always difficult to judge political decisions, when their attainability lies far in the future. This is why i think that any nation may never be judged by its goals and values it boasts about, but by the means it uses for its implementation."
Werner Heisenberg (1901 – 1976)

Yet i wonder how Mr Obama would act if faced with the same crisis though.
One things is passing judgment yet another one is dealing with issues at hand in time of crisis.

donna52522 · 08-06-14, 10:40 PM

Every County or Regime as used torture...either now or in the past. Even religions have used it (possibly still). If the torture of one captured turd may save the lives of many decent human beings, then I am pro torture.

You have to decide for yourself, should bad be done for the greater good?

Oberon · 08-06-14, 01:07 PM

Catfish · 08-06-14, 01:14 PM

^ There you go, but not really funny.

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/...ence-detainees

Oberon · 08-06-14, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ There you go, but not really funny.

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/...ence-detainees

I wasn't referring to that.

08-02-14, 07:15 PM	#1
Tribesman Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	We tortured some folks. We did some things that were contrary to our values. Now not wanting to go through the whole debate with people who think torture is acceptable and the useless information it gained was worth the indelible stain it has left on the US. This is to explore the "special relationship". Will the senate agree to Britains request to censor the parts which deal with Britains role in this fiaso? It is important to Britain as it looks like they will face massive payouts through the British courts if their role in gross violations of human rights(war crimes)is confirmed by their allies.

08-02-14, 10:35 PM	#3
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Obama's too busy blowing up civilians with drones to be seen as a hero on the torture front or to complain about Israel. I mean, I'm all for drones, but with him complaining about torture or Israel for basically doing the same thing rather hypocritical. I imagine children blown up with a drone is torture for them to go their lives disfigured in pain... __________________ You see my dog don't like people laughing. He gets the crazy idea you're laughing at him. Now if you apologize like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

08-03-14, 06:34 AM	#5
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,766 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Has been in the press here for years, nothing new. Germany allowed the CIA planes to cross german airspace to Poland for torturing outside of the US, so nothing to boast or criticize about in Germany - we knew exactly what this was for. After all the hubbub, or better the lack thereof in anglo-saxon space, i guess it will all end like the "Hornberger Schiessen" (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornberger_Schie%C3%9Fen) "It is always difficult to judge political decisions, when their attainability lies far in the future. This is why i think that any political movement may never be judged by its ambitions (~goals?) it boasts about, but by the means it uses for its implementation." Werner Heisenberg, german physician (1901 – 1976) Last edited by Catfish; 08-03-14 at 06:44 AM.

08-06-14, 10:40 PM	#12
donna52522 Lady Mariner Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 544 Downloads: 225 Uploads: 0	Every County or Regime as used torture...either now or in the past. Even religions have used it (possibly still). If the torture of one captured turd may save the lives of many decent human beings, then I am pro torture. You have to decide for yourself, should bad be done for the greater good? __________________

08-02-14, 09:11 PM	#2
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	I think this thread will be full of rational, calm discourse with a welcoming embrace of American and European viewpoints. Meanwhile back in reality, I'm not really surprised, a good nod to Obama for bringing it up, even if he hasn't managed to sort Gitmo yet, but it's a step forward in my opinion. Of course it's going to be a lot of egg on face for the UK, but we've had that coming for a while, can't have your cake and eat it, and we're just going to have to man up and take the lawsuits as they come. Of course, there are going to be plenty that state that this was all done in the interest of the protection of the public against terrorists, but they tend to then tie themselves in knots when that same arguement is used against certain newspaper reporters and whistle blowers. Again, can't have your cake... Naturally though, Obama really doesn't stand a chance, the guy could walk on water and the Republicans would decry him for not swimming with the 'good honest Christian American folk', so I don't expect him to be remembered fondly for this action on this forum...heck, I don't expect him to be remembered fondly on this forum at all, so there you have it. Anyway, I'm sure that this discussion will go absolutely smoothly and not need moderator attention at all.

08-06-14, 12:04 PM	#9
Tribesman Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Nice fail Rockstar problems with English again? I think you should have taken your own words on board.... Farked up as some of my writing skills and reasoning etc etc and so forth may be. You farked up on them again. If a government uses torture as a means to obtain information. Then according to your way of thinking it must therefore be justifiable. No justifiable is justifiable, something is justifiable or it isn't. The government spent a long time trying to justify torture, it had a swarm of fans on this forum trying to justify it too. Now it has said oooops, we got it wrong I wonder if all its fans will also say ooops, we got it wrong. As your own words on another topic leads me to believe you contend no one should argue with what the governement says. "are you willing" does not mean "you shouldn't" , it simply questions your wisdom in doing so considering the specifics of the subject in question and the context of those specifics. Since in this case the government has completely reversed its views, which one of its opposing views are you going to agree with simply because it is a government that had it? In the matter where you are quoting from. If a party who as a matter of routine goes to great lengths in its attempts to justify actions by another party decides on this specific case to not even attempt a justification, do you think it is wise for you to attempt a justification of those specifics anyway?

08-06-14, 01:06 PM	#10
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,766 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	"It is always difficult to judge political decisions, when their attainability lies far in the future. This is why i think that any nation may never be judged by its goals and values it boasts about, but by the means it uses for its implementation." Werner Heisenberg (1901 – 1976) Doesn't this say all that needs to be said ? Loss of credibility, from drones and cynically-called "collateral damage", to eavesdropping own and foreign common people (and even the own senate), to torture. What "freedom" are we talking about ? Not that our own government does not the same things, or at least tries to. Vassals indeed. What is happening now has been the wet dream of Gestapo and Stasi. They were amateurs, in comparison. It seems the new USA are much more anti-americanistic themselves, than their worst critics in Europe, when it comes to comparing their founding principles with what is common practice now. Seriously, what happened to the anglo-saxon world after WW2, that it became what it is ? Thousands of cameras in London, visiting Orwell's house makes you a suspect - what the hell is going on there Is 9/11 the cause ? This event serves as a justification for anything that used to be criminal before, under normal conditions.

08-06-14, 01:07 PM	#13
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20

08-06-14, 01:14 PM	#14
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,766 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	^ There you go, but not really funny. http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/...ence-detainees