Readying ASM and Bomb 6 hr?

[kilorocky]

Quick question, does it really take that long? and Why?

[Sunburn]

Please read here: http://www.harpoonhq.com/waypoint/ar...rticle_056.pdf

[mapuc]

This from Wiki and it's about the Swedish Fighter Jet JAS 39 Gripen(griffin)

"During the Cold War, the Swedish Armed Forces were to be ready to defend against a possible invasion from the Soviet Union. This scenario required combat aircraft to be dispersed in order to maintain an air defence capacity Thus, a key design goal during the Gripen's development was the ability to take off from snow-covered landing strips of only 800 metres (2,600 ft); furthermore, a short-turnaround time of just ten minutes, during which a team composed of a technician and five conscripts would be able to re-arm, refuel, and perform basic inspections and servicing inside that time window before returning to flight"

in another forum I read following(can't remember the link)

"It doesn't take long to attached an Exocet to the body of a plane, it takes about 3 hourse to get the planes computer to accept the exocet"

And that's why I Know the game is incorrect when it comes to the Swedish Fighter Jet. It doesn't take 6 hour to load RBS15 on a JAS39.

Markus

[Sunburn]

Did you read the article?

There is far more to ready times than just pumping fuel to a plane and loading weapons on it.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Sunburn

Did you read the article?

There is far more to ready times than just pumping fuel to a plane and loading weapons on it.

I haven't read all of it. But as I wrote in another Warfaresim forums

The planning a.s.o is MY job not the games or the ingames crews job.

And I'm not talking about a plane that have been damage, which of course require repair and therefor take longer time.

I don't know how it works in USA, Canada, England or other countries, but in Sweden the pilot get his information when he's in the air and so does the missile/robot he has under his wings and that's why it doesn't take so long to get a Fighter jet ready in Sweden.

Edit:
- While the Swedish pilots are waiting for their plane getting refueled, rearmed or reloaded, they are getting information about the next target a.s.o and that doesn't take 5-6 hr and when they are airborn they get additional information
end of Edit



As I understand it an American pilot has to wait about 5-7 hours to get his plane ready, the technicians has to work with the plane, the intelligence has to collect information a.s.o a.s.o(I used a.s.o cause I suddenly forgot all the words I had in my head)

Do not misunderstand me I LOVE the game, but I just can't understand why an American fighter pilot has to wait up to 6 hours from he land his plane and to where he is standing in the take-off position, while a Swedish fighter pilot has to wait about 10 -20 minutes - and that is really baffling me

Another thing that's baffling me is what I wrote before
"takes about 3 hrs to get the planes computer to accept the exocet"

Why does it take that long?? is it because there's two types of computers e.g They are trying to put a x-program into an y-program


Markus

[emsoy]

Cross-posting:

We're planning a 'quick turnaround' option for certain aircraft/loadout combos. Like Israeli attack a/c hot-fueling & re-arming during various wars, A-10s and Marine AV-8Bs doing several CAS sorties in quick succession, Swedish Viggens doing 15-min AAM re-arming, etc.

So the Israeli aircraft could do, say, 2-4 strike sorties with 30 min turnaround time (need to check the sources on the exact number) but would then have to step down for a prolonged period of time for aircraft maintenance and crew rest (say 18-24hrs vice 6hrs).

It should probably be up to the scenario author to enable/disable the quick re-arm option in his scenario. In many cases it would not make sense to have this ability.

How does that sound?

ttp://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3427545

[kilorocky]

6-hour ready duration is an easy answer but not ideal one.

I have a book by chinese PLA air force on AC readiness. There would be more factors to be considered, such as maintenance effectiveness, failure possibility of the system or a certain part of the AC, training level, etc.

In an ideal simulation, some thing will happen after some AC landing, like there will be a mechanical problem in one, and electronic problem in the other, thus the maintenance team will ground some of the squadron for additional hours, and others could be rearmed and launched in 30 min. or so. It should not be exact 30 min. or an even hour, the ready time could be like 43 min. or 23 min., depending on the aircraft quality, design, pilot and crew fatigue, wound, pinned down by enemy bombing, or even chaos caused by EM suppression.

It would be more realistic, if aircraft is damageable and more detailed variations are involved.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by kilorocky

6-hour ready duration is an easy answer but not ideal one.

I have a book by chinese PLA air force on AC readiness. There would be more factors to be considered, such as maintenance effectiveness, failure possibility of the system or a certain part of the AC, training level, etc.

In an ideal simulation, some thing will happen after some AC landing, like there will be a mechanical problem in one, and electronic problem in the other, thus the maintenance team will ground some of the squadron for additional hours, and others could be rearmed and launched in 30 min. or so. It should not be exact 30 min. or an even hour, the ready time could be like 43 min. or 23 min., depending on the aircraft quality, design, pilot and crew fatigue, wound, pinned down by enemy bombing, or even chaos caused by EM suppression.

It would be more realistic, if aircraft is damageable and more detailed variations are involved.

Of course if a plane have technical problem or have been hit during its mission or on it way to the target or heading away from the target.

I don't know how it is with American fighter Jets I do know how it is with Swedish Fighter Jets as it was written in Wiki
"a short-turnaround time of just ten minutes, during which a team composed of a technician and five conscripts would be able to re-arm, refuel, and perform basic inspections and servicing inside that time window before returning to flight"

Changing a wing on A JAS39 can be done with 1 technician and 2 conscripts and it takes about 20-25 minutes.(if one of the wing have been hit or so)

Furthermore to this story

We or the Swedish Air force haven't got this luxury to let 6-12 or more of our fighter jets to grounded for 5-6 hours in a case of a war with a Super Power, e,g Russia. Quick reload, refuel, repair and away again with same pilot or a fresh one with information about the next target

Maybe you American can have this luxury to have 100-300 of your F16 or F18 be grounded for 6-10 hours.

Of course the time to land, taxi to appointed area, take-off a.s.o take time and that is not what I are arguing about

Markus

[kilorocky]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Of course if a plane have technical problem or have been hit during its mission or on it way to the target or heading away from the target.

I don't know how it is with American fighter Jets I do know how it is with Swedish Fighter Jets as it was written in Wiki
"a short-turnaround time of just ten minutes, during which a team composed of a technician and five conscripts would be able to re-arm, refuel, and perform basic inspections and servicing inside that time window before returning to flight"

Changing a wing on A JAS39 can be done with 1 technician and 2 conscripts and it takes about 20-25 minutes.(if one of the wing have been hit or so)

Furthermore to this story

We or the Swedish Air force haven't got this luxury to let 6-12 or more of our fighter jets to grounded for 5-6 hours in a case of a war with a Super Power, e,g Russia. Quick reload, refuel, repair and away again with same pilot or a fresh one with information about the next target

Maybe you American can have this luxury to have 100-300 of your F16 or F18 be grounded for 6-10 hours.

Of course the time to land, taxi to appointed area, take-off a.s.o take time and that is not what I are arguing about

Markus

So, it's easy to apply these kind of difference. You may just add more attributions into the platform (AC, ship, etc.), how easy is it to replace a wing, an engine, or how long does it take to refuel on the ground.

Guys at warsim would have to work hard to upgrade the DB for quite a while, and there will be a few discuss in the foreseeable future.

Hmmm... do you really want to do it? As a fanatic war sim fan, I prefer the more realistic model and engine. hah!

[kilorocky]

it may seem to be irrelevant, but, I have to ask:

How long did it take, when Japanese changed the ground bomb to torpedo during the midway campaign?

[emsoy]

Markus, I hear what you're saying and it is our intention to add quick-turnaround.

But there is no way a combat aircraft can fly 40 combat sorties in a row with 30 min turnaround. Or 10. Or 5. The latter have been achieved, but only a handful times by just a few pilots. So its not something we'll base an air ops model on.

Flying a combat mission is like running a marathon. Pilots and aircraft need to rest. They can do about one per day sustained, 2 per day during surge (which is an impressive achievement - try running 85km per day for 5 days straight!), in very rare cases 3, and almost never as many as 5. The latter happens once or twice in extreme cases during a war, which is not often with 10 000+ sorties flown.

[kilorocky]

Originally Posted by emsoy

Markus, I hear what you're saying and it is our intention to add quick-turnaround.

But there is no way a combat aircraft can fly 40 combat sorties in a row with 30 min turnaround. Or 10. Or 5. The latter have been achieved, but only a handful times by just a few pilots. So its not something we'll base an air ops model on.

Flying a combat mission is like running a marathon. Pilots and aircraft need to rest. They can do about one per day sustained, 2 per day during surge (which is an impressive achievement - try running 85km per day for 5 days straight!), in very rare cases 3, and almost never as many as 5. The latter happens once or twice in extreme cases during a war, which is not often with 10 000+ sorties flown.

sorry to interrupt, and I hate to point out that it sounds bureaucracy to me.

it's more like the officer saying, hey, my pilot will get tired, and you should not fly a second round right now, have to wait for 6 hour interval.

Again, I think the right way to do it is to calculate the fatigue of the pilot and crew, as well as the mechanical failure rate accumulated by frequent action. ie. 24 AC in the beginning, and after the first round 1 is grounded due to failure. Then when it comes to 4 intensive mission within 24 hours, 18 of then will be grounded for different reasons and ready time will vary from the reason.

Different aircraft has different ready and maintenance time. It depends on basic design, proficiency of the crew, mechanical and electronic failure rate, in flight damages, plus some factors accumulated in high intensive mission.

You guys are pro, and I believe you have the right formula to calculate the real readiness of AC in combat.

[mapuc]

10 Minuit 20 Minuit a.s.o that is a short time I agree, but 6 hour !? just to load some weapon, fuel and give the pilot or pilots some information about the next target.(here I'm talking about aircraft with no problem what so ever)

Why not make some kind of time of repair in the game

e.g

4 of your F35 has returned from a mission(which you have planned) after they have landed you get information that 2 of your F35 has a damage(or while they are in the air heading for home)

1. Engine damage
2. Damage to some part of the plane(probably a hit from AAA)

The game could then make some time to when these repair is done and the aircraft can be put into action again. Just an idea

And I'm talking about aircraft-Fighter jets

What I wrote about the Swedish Fighter Jet JAS39 is real time. This is the time the technician and these conscript need to refuel, rearm or reload this fighter jet.
Of course if the plane got a damage or something, additional time has to been added

To get a warship ready that takes time a lot of time(depending on its status when the war started)

Realistic game...when will we ever get that????

It's a great game indeed but realistic When

Here's a example and there's plenty of them

I had 4 F18 (2+2) AMRAAM Heavy their mission was to protect two other groups with Air to ground loadout.

They encountet a group of two MIG29
I USED every AMRAAM on these two MIG's NONE of them hit their target
Then one of the MIG fired 4 of his missile and killed 3 of mine F18

And so it goes in almost EVERY scenario where there's Russian Fighter in it

So don't tell me about realistic game.

Yesterday I played for few hours (Fill the Gap) same here lots and lots of Air to Air missile against Russian fighters and Russian Bombers (had to use about 6-8 missile on each target)

Then These Russian Bombers fired all their ASM against my CVBG. MY CVBG fired almost every SAM2 they had and some more SAM and none of the ASM was hit 4 of my ship was hit.

I like Command and I'm not new to this warfaresim.

Edit forgot two thing

The fatigue of an pilot- Of course a pilot get tired after so and so many hours in the air and on high concentration all the time. What I know most countries have more than 1 pilot per aircraft. Sweden has about 3-4 pilot to each JAS39.

Ready time, planning and other things
Again I say: The planning is MY the players job NOT the in-game-crew

Markus

[emsoy]

Originally Posted by kilorocky

sorry to interrupt, and I hate to point out that it sounds bureaucracy to me.

it's more like the officer saying, hey, my pilot will get tired, and you should not fly a second round right now, have to wait for 6 hour interval.

Again, I think the right way to do it is to calculate the fatigue of the pilot and crew, as well as the mechanical failure rate accumulated by frequent action. ie. 24 AC in the beginning, and after the first round 1 is grounded due to failure. Then when it comes to 4 intensive mission within 24 hours, 18 of then will be grounded for different reasons and ready time will vary from the reason.

Different aircraft has different ready and maintenance time. It depends on basic design, proficiency of the crew, mechanical and electronic failure rate, in flight damages, plus some factors accumulated in high intensive mission.

You guys are pro, and I believe you have the right formula to calculate the real readiness of AC in combat.

Like I said, we're planning a 'quick turnaround' option to cover the (rather rare) real-life cases where planes fly a (limited) number of combat sorties in quick succession. This will be scenario configurable (by the scenario authors, as this doesn't make sense in most scenarios) and to a certain extent also be configurable by the player.

Guess we'll also have to write an updated 'Aircraft Ready Times' article that explains things in even greater detail. Bureaucracy has nothing to do with it. I guess the main problem is that, in Command, the planes appear to just be 'sitting idle' while the clock ticks down from 6 hours or whatever. That 6 hr figure, however, covers the gazillion different reasons why sortie rates are as low as they are in real life.

Look, we've researched this topic to death for the last 20 years. The figures in Command haven't been taken out of thin air, and have been validated by men flying the real deal. Some for more than 25 years. So if you want to re-discuss this issue (for the n-th time) I'd very much appreciate if you could post up hard figures (with links to sources) so that we can compare that with the information we already have.

Thanks!

[emsoy]

Originally Posted by mapuc

10 Minuit 20 Minuit a.s.o that is a short time I agree, but 6 hour !? just to load some weapon, fuel and give the pilot or pilots some information about the next target.(here I'm talking about aircraft with no problem what so ever)

Why not make some kind of time of repair in the game

e.g

4 of your F35 has returned from a mission(which you have planned) after they have landed you get information that 2 of your F35 has a damage(or while they are in the air heading for home)

1. Engine damage
2. Damage to some part of the plane(probably a hit from AAA)

The game could then make some time to when these repair is done and the aircraft can be put into action again. Just an idea

And I'm talking about aircraft-Fighter jets

What I wrote about the Swedish Fighter Jet JAS39 is real time. This is the time the technician and these conscript need to refuel, rearm or reload this fighter jet.
Of course if the plane got a damage or something, additional time has to been added

To get a warship ready that takes time a lot of time(depending on its status when the war started)

Realistic game...when will we ever get that????

Please see my above post. I'd eally appreciate more hard info on the JAS 39 operations, including the number of sorties generated over time. I.e. during the first 24 hours, during the whole surge ops period (which usually lasts a maximum of 5-6 days) and during sustained ops. I'm afraid the tiny bits of info you've given us so far really isn't enough to validate or disprove the model. Sorry!

Originally Posted by mapuc

It's a great game indeed but realistic When

Here's a example and there's plenty of them

I had 4 F18 (2+2) AMRAAM Heavy their mission was to protect two other groups with Air to ground loadout.

They encountet a group of two MIG29
I USED every AMRAAM on these two MIG's NONE of them hit their target
Then one of the MIG fired 4 of his missile and killed 3 of mine F18

Okay it's impossible to determine what happened without a savegame or a message log. Could be your side had a bad day, and the enemy an extremely lucky one. Or there could be a problem.

Also, what version/build are you using? The latest version (B553 or B554) has a number of improvemets on decoy and DECM handling over 1.03 so recommend checking it out if you're not running it already.

Originally Posted by mapuc

And so it goes in almost EVERY scenario where there's Russian Fighter in it

So don't tell me about realistic game.

Yesterday I played for few hours (Fill the Gap) same here lots and lots of Air to Air missile against Russian fighters and Russian Bombers (had to use about 6-8 missile on each target)

Then These Russian Bombers fired all their ASM against my CVBG. MY CVBG fired almost every SAM2 they had and some more SAM and none of the ASM was hit 4 of my ship was hit.

That sounds... weird... can you post a savegame? And again, what version of the sim are you using? B553/554 has a number of fixes to both seeker logics and mid-course guidance logics, but also introduces PoK speed modifiers for anti-ship missiles. Fast missiles will be difficult if not impossible to hit by older, less capable anti-air systems.

And what was the ECM environment like?

Originally Posted by mapuc

I like Command and I'm not new to this warfaresim.

Edit forgot two thing

The fatigue of an pilot- Of course a pilot get tired after so and so many hours in the air and on high concentration all the time. What I know most countries have more than 1 pilot per aircraft. Sweden has about 3-4 pilot to each JAS39.

Ready time, planning and other things
Again I say: The planning is MY the players job NOT the in-game-crew

Markus

No problem, but we need more hard facts. Sorry.