Swastikas and Germany in the modern day...

areo16 · 03-29-14, 04:51 AM

I'd like to open a thread about Germany in the modern day and its policy about the Swastika. I'm from the US, and I'm trying to understand Germany's freedom of speech views and laws in the modern day. But especially its outlaw of Swastikas.

Of course, we all know the Swastikas history, but I'd like to hear from Germans and what they think of the law?

To put it on a level understanding I can say this: In the US, we have a strong slavery history. To compare the Holocaust with our slavery history isn't what I'm after here. One could argue that to demote someone to a piece of property, with the emotional and painful hardships that a slave would go through may even be as bad or worse than being gassed in a concentration camp.

But, most of American history is draped with slavery. However, I wouldn't think that an outlaw of the CSA (Confederate) flag would be justified. Of course our freedom of speech rights are very unique and deeply embedded in our constitution. I think history is something we should be proud of, and we can look at the good things in our past. Today, when I think of the CSA I like to think of their fighting will power against astounding odds. I also like how they challenged the Federal government and voiced their opinions, and revolted (acts Thomas Jefferson had promoted during the Revolution that would cleanse a government periodically). I thought they exercised their freedom to disagree with the government, and even bearing arms against a government they saw as unjust, just like the Continental Congress did years before.

How do Germans feel? Do you feel the same as I?

I personally feel that Germans should embrace their past. Even their Nazi past. Their military feats were astounding and it would be something I'd be proud of, other things aside. I know time will help heal wounds. But is outlawing the Swastika really sending the right message? It seems almost ironic. Didn't the Nazi government outlaw political symbols or flags that they disagreed with? I'd also think that outlawing the symbol would be disgracing the men who fought for the ideology and died for it. Not all Nazis knew of the Holocaust or were "evil". I'd feel upset if the government outlawed the CSA flag, knowing that many Americans bled for that flag.

I'd also be a bit frustrated if I couldn't play video games with Swastikas in them, because I enjoy playing historical games. Not allowing a Swastika in a game or a movie would really ruin the atmosphere for me. Because they often use other symbols, that didn't even exist. I wouldn't care for it much. I'm a history junkie though...

Anyhow, food for thought...

areo16 · 03-29-14, 05:04 AM

I suppose we can look at the reasons why the Swastika would be outlawed to better understand why it is outlawed in Germany.
To appease those who hated what was done in the name of the Swastika (understandable).

To perhaps prevent another Nazi revolution (although considering how much the world knows the atrocities that occurred with Nazism, I don't think the world would ever let that happen again even slightly).

I can't think of any others. Help?

Schroeder · 03-29-14, 06:34 AM

I don't miss the Swastika one bit. If you get a little deeper into what happened during the Nazi time it's in my opinion right to not let some modern idiots walk around with a Nazi flag which would be mocking all the people who suffered under the Swastika (the crimes even outside the Holocaust are mind blowing).

Freedom of speech is important but if this freedom is used to propagate terror and crime of that scale then it's IMHO ok to ban it for that subject. I'm aware that this is a very fine line that borders censorship but for the overall situation here I think it's acceptable in that case.

Betonov · 03-29-14, 06:47 AM

The US civil war was an internal matter. Americans killing Americans due to a different idea of, bluntly putting it, level of centralization of the union. As brutal as a war can be, there was no other atrocities apart from the usual ''breaches of the Geneva convention*'' we see even today. And in times when the global media was an occasional telegram from over the seas.

Nazism was an international matter. A madman followed by madmen invading other countries in a notion that some races are superior resulting in the destruction of entire generations of Germans, Poles, Russians, Jews...
It brought shame to a country that was also blamed for one bloodbath just 20 years earlier.
Then there was the added notion of neo-nazism springing up in force and letting them have the former symbols to use as a rallying point.

* The Geneva convention was first drafted during the times of the CW, we can't really talk about the actual rules being broken during the CW

areo16 · 03-29-14, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

I don't miss the Swastika one bit. If you get a little deeper into what happened during the Nazi time it's in my opinion right to not let some modern idiots walk around with a Nazi flag which would be mocking all the people who suffered under the Swastika (the crimes even outside the Holocaust are mind blowing).

Freedom of speech is important but if this freedom is used to propagate terror and crime of that scale then it's IMHO ok to ban it for that subject. I'm aware that this is a very fine line that borders censorship but for the overall situation here I think it's acceptable in that case.

It seems you live in Germany. So, you are in favor of a limited freedom of speech. Which wouldn't be freedom of speech, because it is controls in some shape or form. It would be "limited freedom of speech", which isn't "freedom of speech" in the general sense of the words. It seems you feel freedom of speech should take the bench to the propagation of terror.

In most places propogation of terror is illegal anyhow. This could be considered a threat, which is a crime here in the states. So why limit the freedom of speech if the propagation of terror and the acts the Nazis did are illegal anyhow? What about the display of the swastika for educational purposes, or peaceful purposes? I realize this might be hard to grasps considering that the incidents occurred just 60 years ago. But you do think that Freedom of speech does have its limits.

areo16 · 03-29-14, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov

The US civil war was an internal matter. Americans killing Americans due to a different idea of, bluntly putting it, level of centralization of the union. As brutal as a war can be, there was no other atrocities apart from the usual ''breaches of the Geneva convention*'' we see even today. And in times when the global media was an occasional telegram from over the seas.

Nazism was an international matter. A madman followed by madmen invading other countries in a notion that some races are superior resulting in the destruction of entire generations of Germans, Poles, Russians, Jews...
It brought shame to a country that was also blamed for one bloodbath just 20 years earlier.
Then there was the added notion of neo-nazism springing up in force and letting them have the former symbols to use as a rallying point.

* The Geneva convention was first drafted during the times of the CW, we can't really talk about the actual rules being broken during the CW

Did you grow up in Germany or do you live there?

Skybird · 03-29-14, 07:11 AM

The name "Hitler" is banned in Germany as well, you can name your child "Adolf", but it is done almost never, but a second name "Hitler" is banned.

The simply unimaginable monstrosity of the crimes back then explain sufficiently why the symbols used to represent those committing them, are no-go now. Holocaust and the the amount of human suffering due to WWII in Europe and Russia, is second to none, in its dimension and perfidy. You cannot use the standards by which you would judge other, ordinary wars and crimes, to describe them. This dark event stands out from the background of human history. Wanting to "un-ban" it now, holds not the smallest positive gain, none.

The evilness and nothing-but-barbary-kind of nature of Nazism and the third Reich, stands beyond any doubt and must not be given any space for doubt anymore. To ban reminding symbols for them, therefore is acceptable, and in no way can be demonised as "banning free mind and free speech". To unban them , holds not a single positive gain, none.

We have growing objections to forming free opinions and free speech and free minds, encoded in social standards and this thing called political correctness and what in German I usually call Gesinnungs- und Tugendterror. Swastika and "Hitler" being banned, is not part of that.

I think, Nazi parties and organisations should be banned, too, and persecuted without any forgiveness. As I said, their barbaric basic nature and ideology history already has proven beyond even the smallest of the smallest doubts. Root it out. the argument of giving something the benefit of the doubt as long as it has not indeed fully proven to be guilty, is invalid here.

That the swastika has been hijacked and originally was a symbol of luck and happiness, cannot chnage that it last was used for the purpose of enormous horror and terror, and that it has left a branding sign on history, therefore.

To hell with all Nazi scum there is. I refuse to care for their interests and to be bothered by putting them on the list of endangered species.

Betonov · 03-29-14, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by areo16

Did you grow up in Germany or do you live there?

Neither.

Call it an independent observation by an outsider interested in both world wars and the US civil war.

Oberon · 03-29-14, 08:09 AM

I can see this going well...

Anyway, as a nation who was on the receiving end of some of the Third Reichs finest, I struggle frequently to understand the banning of the swastika, but equally I can understand the fear and worry of it being hijacked by Neo-Nazis. However, one does have to ponder that if the swastika holds such power because of its blood stained past, then what of the hammer and sickle? It is drenched in as much blood if not more than the swastika, and yet it is still perfectly permissible to use it within Russia.

There are other genocides, including the colonisation of the Americas if one wishes to look upon it as such, which have taken a higher death toll than the Holocaust, and yet the events are often overlooked and dismissed.

Still, it is a German internal matter, and if Germany is fine with it, then that is the main thing really. I don't fully understand it, and think that banning things only tend to make them more alluring to those already susceptible to such things, but it's not for me to decide on such matters.

Wolferz · 03-29-14, 08:23 AM

Iron cross it out.

Still, it was odd that the Nazis would choose a Hindu religious symbol for their moniker.
Wars are started with lies, for the express purpose of controlling resources that the aggressors don't possess.
There is nothing on this planet worth stealing or killing other human beings for. Nothing!

Skybird · 03-29-14, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

I can see this going well...

Anyway, as a nation who was on the receiving end of some of the Third Reichs finest, I struggle frequently to understand the banning of the swastika, but equally I can understand the fear and worry of it being hijacked by Neo-Nazis. However, one does have to ponder that if the swastika holds such power because of its blood stained past, then what of the hammer and sickle? It is drenched in as much blood if not more than the swastika, and yet it is still perfectly permissible to use it within Russia.

There are other genocides, including the colonisation of the Americas if one wishes to look upon it as such, which have taken a higher death toll than the Holocaust, and yet the events are often overlooked and dismissed.

Still, it is a German internal matter, and if Germany is fine with it, then that is the main thing really. I don't fully understand it, and think that banning things only tend to make them more alluring to those already susceptible to such things, but it's not for me to decide on such matters.

Stalin is en vogue again in Russia, Oberon.

Germans by still a huge majority dispise Hitler. Ver ymany Russians, probably even a majority, embrace the Stalin cult. Huge differences there.

If so many Russians would not be so sympathetic to the Stalin cult, maybe the symbolism of the USSR would not be that much part of the mainstrema culture now. Or maybe it is like this: that the symbolism of USSR are used by the elites to push the popularity of Stalinist personal cult?

If you mention today the iperial age and the western powers' behavior in the colonies, you immediately get a public verbal beating and a substantial media bashing. If you would voice opinions of sympathy for the wars against the Southern and Northern Indians, you would face massive criticism and personal attacks.

In China, however, again the symbolism of the past - Mao and his influence - is used to protect party interests.

Re,member the anger and fury Japan causes year by year when those backward-oriented conswervatiove dwarfs visit their damn shrine, and Japan until today rejects to recognise its responsibility for certain dark chapters in the history of the war in Asia.

If I were the soul of an Allied soldier who fell at Omaha beach, and I would look down from my cloud and see that I gave my life only that people today prepare a path for Nazism again, and that they show tolerance for the very thinking that led to a war that costed me my life which I gave to fight against it, and that they claim that said thinking has a right to exist in this world - I would turn in my grave. Eh, roll over on my cloud, I mean. And I would make it my rule that if I ever get reborn, I will never fight again agaiunst Nazism, for such stupid people just do not deserve to risk one's own life for them.

Taking these examples, i think it cannot hurt to not start Nazi symbols in German public again. We have the Nazis already growing again anyway over here, we must not make the path easier for them.

That having a public debate about symbols and ideologies not automatically leads to immunity against their content and their dretsurcive mind work, you can see in the example of Islam. The publicly demonstrated sympathy and all-embracing attitude towards its claims, not only means that its many barbaric aspects get glossed over and an basic uncritical attitude toewards it is spreading and historic events are forged in its favour - it also helps to increase the number of "radicals" and "extremists" as well. That works by the same logic like pest plants do blossom if you prepare a good ground for them and give them fertilizer and a friendly climate helping their growth. How one could fight weed by not rooting it out but by tolerating it and adding fertilizer to it, escapes me as long as I can think. To me that is one of these typical Western follies. You help what is positive - nevertheless you also have to fight what is bad, you must not tolerate it in the hope that the growing positives will overcome it. All too often, they do not.

Westwern rational people all too often tick by this idea of that if they mean it well and act rationally, the other will answer by becoming well-meamnning and actingf rational as well. Have the recent years not taught us for the better? The currently actual example would be Erdoghan I. of Turkey. He has been appeased and endlessly embraced, and turned out to be the autocratic corrupot and extremely fundamentalsist bastard that I always have claimed he really is. And still he is not being banned in the EU and in Germany, but gets welcomed with open arms.

Two years ago, we had a nazo march right at the block where I live. For half a day police in hiuge strength isollated the whole district, us residents could not get in or out, thoisuands demsntrated and blocked the traffic roads and brought puiblic life to anstandstill within this zone while police tried to keep separate one or tweo hundred Nazi scumbags shouting and yelling their paroles on the crossorad 50m from my kitchen windows. All this effort, money, awareness, hype and emotion, police operation and personell on the street - just for - for what...? For a bunch of holocaust deniars and backwards-oriented imbiciles too dump and too stupid to relasie they have a brain, living at all our costs, and spitting the hand that still feeds them: the all-understanding oh so tolerant wellfare state.

Calculating the net costs against the net gains, it would have been cheaper to have their train derailed and falling from a bridge.

Gammelpreusse · 03-29-14, 08:49 AM

Well, in short, the Swastika stands for people that want to end freedom of speech.

The Weimar Republic had complete freedom of speech. But freedom, in all it's forms, also comes with a certain responsebility, something a lot of people tend to forget. And in Germany, this freedom was terribly abused.

So after WW2 Germany learned the lesson that democracy must be able to defend itself. This means that it activly fights everything that wants to challenge the current freedoms. the concept is called "streitbare Demokratie". Radical parties of the left or right thus were banned, too.

Also, the Swastika is not outrightly banned. In the context of history, in education, historical movies and tv shows it can be used. Just not, for examples for toys, banalaties or as active political symbol. Too many people who became victims of it are still alive. What do you think a Jew wandering the streets of modern Germany suddenly seeing the Swastika again would think?

Also, the Swastika is not just an old Hindu symbol, it also is an old germanic symbol.

Germany has chosen to go this route, it was not forced on us as some like to state, what other nations do with their own past (including the messsage that delivers) is up to them.

Oberon · 03-29-14, 08:54 AM

Another interesting observation and comparison that you might want to make in this thread is the nation of Japan, as well as the treatment of German history in West and East Germany.

Again, I am British so I do not have first hand experience of this matter, however I have read about it and spoken to German people, and have been able, rightly or wrongly, to draw some conclusions from this.

In Japan there wasn't any sense of war guilt impressed upon the population, the nation was demilitarised (briefly) but symbols of Imperial Japan were not banned, and the Emperor was not removed. As such, if one compares modern Japan and modern Germany one sees two very different sides of the spectrum of dealing with a difficult period of history.
Whilst Germany carries its war guilt, Japan has denied it for the most part, although it has paid reperations in many instances, it still denies many of its most brutal crimes such as the 'Rape of Nanking' and conducts historical revision in its school textbooks.

Furthermore in Germany itself, and admittedly this is a more sketchy conclusion that I have drawn, and I await confirmation or denial from those more in the know, there was a difference between how the post-war guilt was taught to East and West Germany, and that, coupled with the vast difference in economic prosperity between East and West Germany in the modern day has meant that if one were to look at Neo-Nazism in Germany you would likely find a slightly higher percentage of Neo-Nazis in the former territories of East Germany than in the West, as people were educated and society tackled the issue in a different manner.

So, it's not really a clear cut issue, few things really are, and historical revisionism takes place all over the world, and I think that as we approach the 100th anniversary of the First World War, there's a danger of it happening again as the victorious Entente look to place the blame of the war firmly upon the Central Powers, one only has to look at Max Hastings on the causes of WWI to see the arguements being put forward at this centenary.

Gammelpreusse · 03-29-14, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Furthermore in Germany itself, and admittedly this is a more sketchy conclusion that I have drawn, and I await confirmation or denial from those more in the know, there was a difference between how the post-war guilt was taught to East and West Germany, and that, coupled with the vast difference in economic prosperity between East and West Germany in the modern day has meant that if one were to look at Neo-Nazism in Germany you would likely find a slightly higher percentage of Neo-Nazis in the former territories of East Germany than in the West, as people were educated and society tackled the issue in a different manner.

The DDR saw itself in the tradition of people who activly fought Nazism (communists, socialists), a "new" Germany" without ties to the past and as such saw now guilt in itself. Instead the "West" was to blame. This was such a strong part of eastern german (and soviet at large) self idendity that it justified much of the state's existence in itself. In ways you still see remnants of that today in the Ukraine conflict, given how often the word "fascist" is thrown around by the russian side of the propaganda game.

The BRD on the other hand considered itself (and still does) the continuation of the old german state. However, a real tackling of the past only came in the wake of the 68ers, the children that were born in the last years of the war or immidialty thereafter, who rose up in the still rather very restrictive after war years with teachers still from the Nazi era and challenged a tendency that was initially very much like that of Japan, forget and move on.

Friscobay · 03-29-14, 10:12 AM

The paradox of the swastika does not take long to rear its head, even to areas as seemingly mundane as gaming.

Consider the fact that there have been thousands of downloads to mods that place the correct Kriegsmarine swastika devices back where they historically belong in the SH series. I myself, instantly viewing the thing from a historical aspect rather than that of a budding ''neo-nazi'', said under my breath upon looking at a German craft for the first time in SH3, ''now this is just stupid'' , when seeing UBISOFTS famous Big White Empty Disk Where A Swastika Should Be -Flags.
Closer inspection found that even devices as small as uniform badging, had the ''eagle'' swastikas removed. Now perhaps, UBISOFT, in its Euro sales and in other nations where the swastika is banned, may not have wanted to get its SH versions deep-sixed for including them in the game. I am not sure. However, simply the fact that we head for ''correct ensign/flag'' downloads displays that we are less uptight about the device of the Third Reich, than we are in ensuring greater historical accuracy within military gaming and simulation.
That's just my two pfennigs...

03-29-14, 04:51 AM	#1
areo16 Sonar Guy Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 382 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	Swastikas and Germany in the modern day... I'd like to open a thread about Germany in the modern day and its policy about the Swastika. I'm from the US, and I'm trying to understand Germany's freedom of speech views and laws in the modern day. But especially its outlaw of Swastikas. Of course, we all know the Swastikas history, but I'd like to hear from Germans and what they think of the law? To put it on a level understanding I can say this: In the US, we have a strong slavery history. To compare the Holocaust with our slavery history isn't what I'm after here. One could argue that to demote someone to a piece of property, with the emotional and painful hardships that a slave would go through may even be as bad or worse than being gassed in a concentration camp. But, most of American history is draped with slavery. However, I wouldn't think that an outlaw of the CSA (Confederate) flag would be justified. Of course our freedom of speech rights are very unique and deeply embedded in our constitution. I think history is something we should be proud of, and we can look at the good things in our past. Today, when I think of the CSA I like to think of their fighting will power against astounding odds. I also like how they challenged the Federal government and voiced their opinions, and revolted (acts Thomas Jefferson had promoted during the Revolution that would cleanse a government periodically). I thought they exercised their freedom to disagree with the government, and even bearing arms against a government they saw as unjust, just like the Continental Congress did years before. How do Germans feel? Do you feel the same as I? I personally feel that Germans should embrace their past. Even their Nazi past. Their military feats were astounding and it would be something I'd be proud of, other things aside. I know time will help heal wounds. But is outlawing the Swastika really sending the right message? It seems almost ironic. Didn't the Nazi government outlaw political symbols or flags that they disagreed with? I'd also think that outlawing the symbol would be disgracing the men who fought for the ideology and died for it. Not all Nazis knew of the Holocaust or were "evil". I'd feel upset if the government outlawed the CSA flag, knowing that many Americans bled for that flag. I'd also be a bit frustrated if I couldn't play video games with Swastikas in them, because I enjoy playing historical games. Not allowing a Swastika in a game or a movie would really ruin the atmosphere for me. Because they often use other symbols, that didn't even exist. I wouldn't care for it much. I'm a history junkie though... Anyhow, food for thought...

03-29-14, 06:34 AM	#3
Schroeder Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Banana Republic of Germany Posts: 6,170 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	I don't miss the Swastika one bit. If you get a little deeper into what happened during the Nazi time it's in my opinion right to not let some modern idiots walk around with a Nazi flag which would be mocking all the people who suffered under the Swastika (the crimes even outside the Holocaust are mind blowing). Freedom of speech is important but if this freedom is used to propagate terror and crime of that scale then it's IMHO ok to ban it for that subject. I'm aware that this is a very fine line that borders censorship but for the overall situation here I think it's acceptable in that case. __________________ Putting Germ back into Germany.

03-29-14, 07:11 AM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	The name "Hitler" is banned in Germany as well, you can name your child "Adolf", but it is done almost never, but a second name "Hitler" is banned. The simply unimaginable monstrosity of the crimes back then explain sufficiently why the symbols used to represent those committing them, are no-go now. Holocaust and the the amount of human suffering due to WWII in Europe and Russia, is second to none, in its dimension and perfidy. You cannot use the standards by which you would judge other, ordinary wars and crimes, to describe them. This dark event stands out from the background of human history. Wanting to "un-ban" it now, holds not the smallest positive gain, none. The evilness and nothing-but-barbary-kind of nature of Nazism and the third Reich, stands beyond any doubt and must not be given any space for doubt anymore. To ban reminding symbols for them, therefore is acceptable, and in no way can be demonised as "banning free mind and free speech". To unban them , holds not a single positive gain, none. We have growing objections to forming free opinions and free speech and free minds, encoded in social standards and this thing called political correctness and what in German I usually call Gesinnungs- und Tugendterror. Swastika and "Hitler" being banned, is not part of that. I think, Nazi parties and organisations should be banned, too, and persecuted without any forgiveness. As I said, their barbaric basic nature and ideology history already has proven beyond even the smallest of the smallest doubts. Root it out. the argument of giving something the benefit of the doubt as long as it has not indeed fully proven to be guilty, is invalid here. That the swastika has been hijacked and originally was a symbol of luck and happiness, cannot chnage that it last was used for the purpose of enormous horror and terror, and that it has left a branding sign on history, therefore. To hell with all Nazi scum there is. I refuse to care for their interests and to be bothered by putting them on the list of endangered species. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 03-29-14 at 07:23 AM.

03-29-14, 08:23 AM	#10
Wolferz Navy Seal Join Date: May 2007 Location: On a mighty quest for the Stick of Truth Posts: 5,963 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	Iron cross it out. Still, it was odd that the Nazis would choose a Hindu religious symbol for their moniker. Wars are started with lies, for the express purpose of controlling resources that the aggressors don't possess. There is nothing on this planet worth stealing or killing other human beings for. Nothing! __________________ Tomorrow never comes

03-29-14, 08:49 AM	#12
Gammelpreusse Planesman Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 191 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Well, in short, the Swastika stands for people that want to end freedom of speech. The Weimar Republic had complete freedom of speech. But freedom, in all it's forms, also comes with a certain responsebility, something a lot of people tend to forget. And in Germany, this freedom was terribly abused. So after WW2 Germany learned the lesson that democracy must be able to defend itself. This means that it activly fights everything that wants to challenge the current freedoms. the concept is called "streitbare Demokratie". Radical parties of the left or right thus were banned, too. Also, the Swastika is not outrightly banned. In the context of history, in education, historical movies and tv shows it can be used. Just not, for examples for toys, banalaties or as active political symbol. Too many people who became victims of it are still alive. What do you think a Jew wandering the streets of modern Germany suddenly seeing the Swastika again would think? Also, the Swastika is not just an old Hindu symbol, it also is an old germanic symbol. Germany has chosen to go this route, it was not forced on us as some like to state, what other nations do with their own past (including the messsage that delivers) is up to them. __________________ Last edited by Gammelpreusse; 03-29-14 at 09:14 AM.

03-29-14, 05:04 AM	#2
areo16 Sonar Guy Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 382 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	I suppose we can look at the reasons why the Swastika would be outlawed to better understand why it is outlawed in Germany. To appease those who hated what was done in the name of the Swastika (understandable). To perhaps prevent another Nazi revolution (although considering how much the world knows the atrocities that occurred with Nazism, I don't think the world would ever let that happen again even slightly). I can't think of any others. Help?

03-29-14, 06:47 AM	#4
Betonov Navy Seal Join Date: May 2009 Location: Slovenia Posts: 8,647 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	The US civil war was an internal matter. Americans killing Americans due to a different idea of, bluntly putting it, level of centralization of the union. As brutal as a war can be, there was no other atrocities apart from the usual ''breaches of the Geneva convention'' we see even today. And in times when the global media was an occasional telegram from over the seas. Nazism was an international matter. A madman followed by madmen invading other countries in a notion that some races are superior resulting in the destruction of entire generations of Germans, Poles, Russians, Jews... It brought shame to a country that was also blamed for one bloodbath just 20 years earlier. Then there was the added notion of neo-nazism springing up in force and letting them have the former symbols to use as a rallying point. The Geneva convention was first drafted during the times of the CW, we can't really talk about the actual rules being broken during the CW

03-29-14, 08:09 AM	#9
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	I can see this going well... Anyway, as a nation who was on the receiving end of some of the Third Reichs finest, I struggle frequently to understand the banning of the swastika, but equally I can understand the fear and worry of it being hijacked by Neo-Nazis. However, one does have to ponder that if the swastika holds such power because of its blood stained past, then what of the hammer and sickle? It is drenched in as much blood if not more than the swastika, and yet it is still perfectly permissible to use it within Russia. There are other genocides, including the colonisation of the Americas if one wishes to look upon it as such, which have taken a higher death toll than the Holocaust, and yet the events are often overlooked and dismissed. Still, it is a German internal matter, and if Germany is fine with it, then that is the main thing really. I don't fully understand it, and think that banning things only tend to make them more alluring to those already susceptible to such things, but it's not for me to decide on such matters.

03-29-14, 08:54 AM	#13
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Another interesting observation and comparison that you might want to make in this thread is the nation of Japan, as well as the treatment of German history in West and East Germany. Again, I am British so I do not have first hand experience of this matter, however I have read about it and spoken to German people, and have been able, rightly or wrongly, to draw some conclusions from this. In Japan there wasn't any sense of war guilt impressed upon the population, the nation was demilitarised (briefly) but symbols of Imperial Japan were not banned, and the Emperor was not removed. As such, if one compares modern Japan and modern Germany one sees two very different sides of the spectrum of dealing with a difficult period of history. Whilst Germany carries its war guilt, Japan has denied it for the most part, although it has paid reperations in many instances, it still denies many of its most brutal crimes such as the 'Rape of Nanking' and conducts historical revision in its school textbooks. Furthermore in Germany itself, and admittedly this is a more sketchy conclusion that I have drawn, and I await confirmation or denial from those more in the know, there was a difference between how the post-war guilt was taught to East and West Germany, and that, coupled with the vast difference in economic prosperity between East and West Germany in the modern day has meant that if one were to look at Neo-Nazism in Germany you would likely find a slightly higher percentage of Neo-Nazis in the former territories of East Germany than in the West, as people were educated and society tackled the issue in a different manner. So, it's not really a clear cut issue, few things really are, and historical revisionism takes place all over the world, and I think that as we approach the 100th anniversary of the First World War, there's a danger of it happening again as the victorious Entente look to place the blame of the war firmly upon the Central Powers, one only has to look at Max Hastings on the causes of WWI to see the arguements being put forward at this centenary.

03-29-14, 10:12 AM	#15
Friscobay Mate Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Texas Posts: 54 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	The paradox of the swastika does not take long to rear its head, even to areas as seemingly mundane as gaming. Consider the fact that there have been thousands of downloads to mods that place the correct Kriegsmarine swastika devices back where they historically belong in the SH series. I myself, instantly viewing the thing from a historical aspect rather than that of a budding ''neo-nazi'', said under my breath upon looking at a German craft for the first time in SH3, ''now this is just stupid'' , when seeing UBISOFTS famous Big White Empty Disk Where A Swastika Should Be -Flags. Closer inspection found that even devices as small as uniform badging, had the ''eagle'' swastikas removed. Now perhaps, UBISOFT, in its Euro sales and in other nations where the swastika is banned, may not have wanted to get its SH versions deep-sixed for including them in the game. I am not sure. However, simply the fact that we head for ''correct ensign/flag'' downloads displays that we are less uptight about the device of the Third Reich, than we are in ensuring greater historical accuracy within military gaming and simulation. That's just my two pfennigs...