Tensions Over Gibraltar Remain

[Jimbuna]

It looks like this spat will not calm down in the short term....not that it really matters but both are members of NATO.

The Spanish ambassador has been summoned to the Foreign Office after a "serious incursion" by Spanish ships into waters off Gibraltar.

Europe Minister David Lidington called the act "unlawful" and "dangerous" and urged Spain not to repeat it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26856277

[Catfish]

First Gibraltar, then the Malvinas !
And then they will go for the Spanish Main again

But you know what they say why the new spanish Navy has glass bottoms in their hulls?
So the new armada can have a look at the old one


"Relations between London and Madrid have deteriorated since Gibraltar built an artificial reef last year."

Err what ?

[Skybird]

Two ego-boasted kids sitting in the same sandbox.

What is more urgent a problem and more important to find a solution to, is the two spanish enclaves in Marrocco, because they are not separated by 14 km of water from the continent, legally are EU territory and get frequently stormed by African asylum seekers, because FRONTEX has managed to almost close the street of Gibraltar.

[MGR1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

What is more urgent a problem and more important to find a solution to, is the two spanish enclaves in Marrocco, because they are not separated by 14 km of water from the continent, legally are EU territory and get frequently stormed by African asylum seekers, because FRONTEX has managed to almost close the street of Gibraltar.

Hmmm.

Pot calling kettle black springs to mind.

Mike.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Catfish

First Gibraltar, then the Malvinas!

Those are the Falkland Islands Comrade Catfish, paid for in blood...TWICE! As ADM Graf Maximillian von Spee and his two sons found out he hard way on 8/DEC/1914. Quite a little set-to payback-wise after the Battle of Corunel(which the British lost) in the Pacific off Chile on 1/NOV/1914. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Falkland_Islands

[Catfish]

Those are the Falkland Islands Comrade Catfish, paid for in blood...TWICE! As ADM Graf Maximillian von Spee and his two sons found out he hard way on 8/DEC/1914. Quite a little set-to payback-wise after the Battle of Corunel(which the British lost) in the Pacific off Chile on 1/NOV/1914

Well to be blunt, sailing to a remote island and 'convinving' the population they now belong to a foreign nation (a term they do not even understand) at the other end of the world makes it the "property", of said nation ? (valid for all 'colonies', of course).
I think this concept looks a bit antiquated, by today's standards?

In the moment most inhabitants are for staying in the UK, so no doubt about the "Falklands". But maybe they will be called Oytschnbroom isles in some hundred years, who knows.


Mr. Spee had seen the british ships laying in the harbour, but for whatever reason he decided not to attack them, as long as they were obviously coaling.
His error' was to misjudge the later position when they had left the harbour. There even were efforts to inform him via some small boats, since some of the inhabitants back then were not "for" the british, so to speak. But Spee or the lookouts did not react when they saw small boats coming towards them, and steamed away.

Interesting tidbit, later during the battle that followed, Spee ordered his other ships to leave and rescue themselves, but two stubbornly stayed for defence, and the others were unable to outrun the british, and were sunk likewise.
Except the 25 knot turbine cruiser SMS Dresden, which became a legend and thus had to be sunk by all means, which of course happened, almost in a target practice, after chilean detention and bearing two white flags:
http://www.kreuzer-dresden.de/dresdenbattle.htm
By then still in charge as 1st Sealord, Churchill took it very personal, and some say this was the reason for the attack on Dresden a war later.

B.t.w. the 1st officer of the SMS Dresden had been some Mr. Canaris... he survived with some of the crew.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Well to be blunt, sailing to a remote island and 'convinving' the population they now belong to a foreign nation (a term they do not even understand) at the other end of the world makes it the "property", of said nation ? (valid for all 'colonies', of course).
I think this concept looks a bit antiquated, by today's standards

Which population was that? The French who established the first village in 1764 or the British who created the second in 1766? The Spanish who took over the French claim that same year? The Germans who settled in 1826, long after the British and Spanish both abandoned their colonies? The Americans who forced the Germans out in 1831? No, they then left themselves, and never made a claim.

The Argentinians formed their first garrison that year, but were forced out by the the British in 1832. I'm not sure why, but the British have been in charge since then, and the dispute continues. Therefore I would contest your claim of "convincing" the population.

Mr. Spee had seen the british ships laying in the harbour, but for whatever reason he decided not to attack them, as long as they were obviously coaling.
His error' was to misjudge the later position when they had left the harbour. There even were efforts to inform him via some small boats, since some of the inhabitants back then were not "for" the british, so to speak. But Spee or the lookouts did not react when they saw small boats coming towards them, and steamed away.

I'd like to see your source for that. Count von Spee's plan was to raid Port Stanley for coal, a plan opposed by the captain of his second Armored Cruiser, Gneisenau. Spee sent Gneisenau ahead to scout, and when he saw tripod masts that could only belong to British battlecruisers, and his ship was straddled by a salvo from the battlship HMS Canopus, the German squadron ran for their lives.

Had Spee avoided the islands altogether he likely would have coaled at New York while the British were looking for him in the Pacific. Had he attacked the British squadron he might have won, because they were all refueling and therefor powered down and unable to operate their turrets. He had no way of knowing that running was the worst of his options.

Source: Graf Spee's Raiders, by Keith Yates.
http://www.amazon.com/Graf-Spees-Rai.../dp/1557509778

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Which population was that?

I generally meant the idea of landing on territories at whatever location, and just declare it one's property, with a present population or not.
A population obviously did not prevent nations of declaring the ground "their" property, which is true for all colonial nations, of course.
Not much population at those special islands back then, i agree.

The Argentinians formed their first garrison that year, but were forced out by the the British in 1832. I'm not sure why, but the British have been in charge since then, and the dispute continues.

I guess the British were superior, weapon-wise. So they did it because they could.

"Count von Spee's plan was to raid Port Stanley for coal, a plan opposed by the captain of his second Armored Cruiser, Gneisenau. Spee sent Gneisenau ahead to scout, and when he saw tripod masts that could only belong to British battlecruisers, and his ship was straddled by a salvo from the battlship HMS Canopus, the German squadron ran for their lives."

As far as i read and understand, coaling ships anchored aside in a harbour with the crew being ashore are sitting ducks. And I did not read that the british fleet in the harbour fired even one shot (?). This is also not mentioned in the german record.

Whatever the reason Spee decided not to attack. The coaling ships were in no shape to follow the german fleet immediately, it took at least eight hours to build up steam, get the crews back and prepare for battle.
The british fleet was then searching for Spee, and as we know they soon found them. Boats from the islands wanted to warn Spee, but they did not reach him, and he may also have underrated the british fleet. He was also in awe because he heard he had killed a good pre-war friend of his at Coronel, Admiral Cradock, with whom he fought shoulder to shoulder in China.
"On 3 November, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Nürnberg entered Valparaiso harbour and were welcomed as heroes by the German population. Von Spee refused to join in the celebrations: presented with a bunch of flowers he commented, "these will do nicely for my grave".

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I generally meant the idea of landing on territories at whatever location, and just declare it one's property, with a present population or not.
A population obviously did not prevent nations of declaring the ground "their" property, which is true for all colonial nations, of course.
Not much population at those special islands back then, i agree.

I can't disagree with that summation

I guess the British were superior, weapon-wise. So they did it because they could.

I can't disagree with that either. That was my thinking as well.

As far as i read and understand, coaling ships anchored aside in a harbour with the crew being ashore are sitting ducks.

The crew were never ashore. Recoaling required hours of hot, sweaty, dirty, backbreaking labor from every man aboard, as the bags had to be ripped open and dumped down the chutes to the coal bunkers by hand, and when it was done the whole ship had to be cleaned. The Invincible class battlecruisers carried 3080 tons of coal, and even reloading half of that could take up to twelve hours. Yes, they were indeed "sitting ducks".

And I did not read that the british fleet in the harbour fired even one shot (?). This is also not mentioned in the german record.

Canopus was beached at an angle to give her guns longer range. Because she could not see over the hills, her fire-control equipment had been transported to the top of the hill, and her guns were directed from there.
From Admiral sir Doveton Sturdee's official report:
"At 9.20 a.m. the two leading ships of the enemy ("Gneisenau" and "Nürnberg"), with guns trained on the wireless station, came within range of the "Canopus," who opened fire at them across the low land at a range of 11,000 yards. The enemy at once hoisted their colours and turned away. At this time the masts and smoke of the enemy were visible from the upper bridge of the "Invincible" at a range of approximately 17,000 yards across the low land to the south of Port William."
http://www.naval-history.net/WW1Battle1412Falklands.htm
(A.) Preliminary Movements

Whatever the reason Spee decided not to attack. The coaling ships were in no shape to follow the german fleet immediately, it took at least eight hours to build up steam, get the crews back and prepare for battle.

Actually the British squadron was underway by 10:20, exactly one hour after Canopus fired on the Germans. They caught up with Spee's squadron at 12:47, three hours and twenty-seven minutes after the first sighting.

You can read the actual battle reports at the bottom of the linked page.

Boats from the islands wanted to warn Spee

I'm curious as to where that claim comes from. British locals wanted to warn the Germans? I'm aware that the Port Stanley lighthouse keeper saw the Germans first, and left his pregnant wife to tend the lighthouse while he rode his bicycle to warn Sturdee, there being no telegraph at the lighthouse, but I've read nothing about Falklanders wanting to warn von Spee.

[TarJak]

I doubt that the original inhabitants gave a rat's backside either way. Pengiuns and Seals are like that.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by TarJak

I doubt that the original inhabitants gave a rat's backside either way. Pengiuns and Seals are like that.

Rgr that

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The French who established the first village in 1764 or the British who created the second in 1676?

Now I'm starting to become a little confused

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Now I'm starting to become a little confused

You've always been a little confused. If you can't understand space-time relativity in the context of interstitial travel then you can't be expected to not be confused.

Now that I have that out of my system, you're absolutely right. I had to look up the dates again to make sure which one was correct, but now they're fixed.

[Jimbuna]

LOL cheers....I'm far too lethargic atm to do that