Airliner pilot jailed for drinking

[Jimbuna]

I sure hope he is disqualified from ever being in charge of an aircraft again after he gets out of prison

A pilot who admitted being over the legal alcohol limit to fly after being arrested in the cockpit has been jailed for nine months.

In a statement, a spokesman for Pakistan International Airways said "further action" would be taken against Faiz once he had completed his sentence in the UK.
"The maximum sentence is termination from service," he said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-25052665

[Schroeder]

I'm on the fence on this one. Surely you have no business in a cockpit after drinking, but it's not as if he had been really drunk. He was just slightly over the legal limit for handling a car so definitely not in a drunken stupor. He has been flying for 25 years without incident and if the kidnap threat story is true then I can understand his stress, which is no excuse to enter a cockpit intoxicated but at least I can feel a bit for him there. While he should be punished I find 9 months in jail too harsh given the facts.

[Jimbuna]

His reading of 41 microgrammes is more than four times over the limit for that allowed for flying in the UK (9).

Now consider if he was driving a car and was more than four times over the 35 limit

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

While he should be punished I find 9 months in jail too harsh given the facts.

I know of a driver who has killed two cyclists on separate occassions, for the first in 1986 he was sentenced to two years, for the latest - banned from driving for five years and 300 hours community service. Car drivers killing cyclists through bad driving gets very little more than a slap on the wrist, a small fine and a ban for a year or two. We need law closer to those in the Netherlands. Anyhoo that's a slight aside - I too think it's a bit harsh a sentence, but I'm also wondering that as he's from a prominent family in Pakistan that he'd be muslim and shouldn't be drinking at all!

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

His reading of 41 microgrammes is more than four times over the limit for that allowed for flying in the UK (9).

Now consider if he was driving a car and was more than four times over the 35 limit

Then why is the car limit so high and the flying limit so low? Intoxication is intoxication. If you can still handle a car without problems then I don't see why you should be unable to fly an aircraft. Both require you to be fully alert and able to control your body.
I think it's an arbitrary limit that doesn't necessarily reflect on your ability to control a vehicle.
Don't get me wrong, I don't condone intoxicated driving or flying, I just think that the punishment is too high in this case. He had the intention to fly but ultimately didn't. So he was punished for intending to fly with a comparatively low amount of alcohol in his blood. I find 9 months in prison too much for that. Suspend his license for 2 years or something. You'll be hard pressed in Germany to be sent to jail for 9 months for beating the crap out of somebody and here someone gets a sentence like that although no one has been injured.

[GoldenRivet]

You know, this is something that happens on a rare occasion and i dont understand why or how.

When i was flying for the airlines, we never had time to do anything but close the hotel door and do our best to get as much sleep as possible on our insignificantly short overnights. After a 14-16 hour duty day, arriving at the hotel at 9 or 10pm and having a 5:30am van time... the only thing on my mind was getting in bed. Let alone getting piss drunk. Check in, bottle of water, snack out of the vending machine, call home, change clothes, hit the sack... in that order.

given, there were perhaps 2-3 times per year where we might have a 14-15 hour overnight. In which case, yes, i might have one 12 ounce lite beer with dinner. Company policy allowed it, as long as you consumed your last drink 12 hours prior to departure. but to get shart faced plastered? (EDIT: or drink enough that anyone would smell it or have the least suspicion about you) No. Hell no.

To do so is not only to jeopardize human life but to jeopardize your entire career as well.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Then why is the car limit so high and the flying limit so low? Intoxication is intoxication. If you can still handle a car without problems then I don't see why you should be unable to fly an aircraft. Both require you to be fully alert and able to control your body.
I think it's an arbitrary limit that doesn't necessarily reflect on your ability to control a vehicle.
Don't get me wrong, I don't condone intoxicated driving or flying, I just think that the punishment is too high in this case. He had the intention to fly but ultimately didn't. So he was punished for intending to fly with a comparatively low amount of alcohol in his blood. I find 9 months in prison too much for that. Suspend his license for 2 years or something. You'll be hard pressed in Germany to be sent to jail for 9 months for beating the crap out of somebody and here someone gets a sentence like that although no one has been injured.

frankly, its not about whether he can handle it.

It is whether or not he exhibits the ability to exercise personal self control and exhibit the responsibility expected from someone in a position such as himself.

He exercised poor judgement, he knew the legal limit, no matter what the limit, how high, how small, he exceeded this limit. he made the grown man's decision to exceed it. and people, especially federal authorities on the matter, chief pilots, passengers and airline executives expect pilots to be capable of better decision making

additionally, consider the liability exposure. If he even so much as ran into an incorrectly placed baggage cart and this resulted in the death of a handler, or an injury of a passenger - the A#1 thing they will always do is drug test the whole crew... bam... over the limit captain. you just exposed the airline to hundreds of millions of dollars in liability

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Then why is the car limit so high and the flying limit so low? Intoxication is intoxication. If you can still handle a car without problems then I don't see why you should be unable to fly an aircraft. Both require you to be fully alert and able to control your body.
I think it's an arbitrary limit that doesn't necessarily reflect on your ability to control a vehicle.
Don't get me wrong, I don't condone intoxicated driving or flying, I just think that the punishment is too high in this case. He had the intention to fly but ultimately didn't. So he was punished for intending to fly with a comparatively low amount of alcohol in his blood. I find 9 months in prison too much for that. Suspend his license for 2 years or something. You'll be hard pressed in Germany to be sent to jail for 9 months for beating the crap out of somebody and here someone gets a sentence like that although no one has been injured.

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

frankly, its not about whether he can handle it.

It is whether or not he exhibits the ability to exercise personal self control and exhibit the responsibility expected from someone in a position such as himself.

He exercised poor judgement, he knew the legal limit, no matter what the limit, how high, how small, he exceeded this limit. he made the grown man's decision to exceed it. and people, especially federal authorities on the matter, chief pilots, passengers and airline executives expect pilots to be capable of better decision making

additionally, consider the liability exposure. If he even so much as ran into an incorrectly placed baggage cart and this resulted in the death of a handler, or an injury of a passenger - the A#1 thing they will always do is drug test the whole crew... bam... over the limit captain. you just exposed the airline to hundreds of millions of dollars in liability

Answered for me but I will also add....flying a plane needs arguably more skill than driving a car and the potential number of lives you are responsible is far higher.

[Stealhead]

Indeed much more skill is needed to safely operate an aircraft I would say a substantial amount more.

That being said I think many people do not take the responsibility of driving a motor vehicle as seriously as they should.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Indeed much more skill is needed to safely operate an aircraft I would say a substantial amount more.

That being said I think many people do not take the responsibility of driving a motor vehicle as seriously as they should.

Rgr that, seen the consequences too many times.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

that he'd be muslim and shouldn't be drinking at all!

Do security for the 'Persian New Year' at a major hotel ballroom some time and you'll get over the notion that 'they' don't drink...even the Johnny Walker Black ran red...but they're Iranian Shiites; One gentleman even owns a notable winery here in the Napa valley as the finest Shiraz is/was a notable middle eastern varietal! The place is modeled after an ancient Persian temple-literally 'gittin' back to yer roots. The rule for commercial sleeper team drivers (back in the day) was 'nothing imbibed 8 hours before setting out' ; I cannot fathom a lesser standard for pilots...

[swamprat69er]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

The rule for commercial sleeper team drivers (back in the day) was 'nothing imbibed 8 hours before setting out' ; I cannot fathom a lesser standard for pilots...

The rule for school bus drivers in Ontario was no alcohol within 12 hours of driving the bus. I'm not sure now, that was 10 years ago

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Do security for the 'Persian New Year' at a major hotel ballroom some time and you'll get over the notion that 'they' don't drink...

Oh that notion was put well and truly in its place whilst in Bahrain - thousands of Saudis crossing the causeway for a weekend of alcohol.

[CaptainMattJ.]

What about sleep deprivation? Studies have shown that a person suffering from lack of sleep exhibits the same impairment as if they were drinking. How do they go about punishing a pilot who shows up with an hour of sleep?

Idealistically as long as a pilot can fly the aircraft with the necessary skill and alertness, then there shouldn't really be a problem. But you can't practically make a standard different for every individual pilot, so the limit they set is perfectly logical and the only real practical way of assuring a pilot is capable of flying an aircraft.

[Jimbuna]

Safest by far is the 24 hour rule.