An apology to our allies.

[Bubblehead1980]

An apology to our friends in Germany and other nations for our tyrannical government's extending it's disregard for privacy rights beyond our borders to our Allies.Seems this has been going on for quite sometime(pre obama even but he has known about it, the spying on Merkel in particular since he took office) and it has continued.There was a time long ago, when the United States stood for "good" in the world, but sadly that has long since passed.With dissidents seeking shelter in Russia of all places, abuse of our allies, just a sign the US government is out of control. For those on here in Germany etc? How is this playing our over there? Not well from what I hear.

[Armistead]

We've always spied on our allies, cuz often they turn out to be our future enemies.

[BrucePartington]

FWIW (I've been thinking about this lately) it seems the people in power no longer truly represent the true nature of the people in each nation.
Dozens of examples could be given, from just about all over the globe.
For it to change, we the people would have to find a way to do away with politicians and the like who bring shame and embarrassment upon their nations.
I know I have my share: the gross mishandling of the Maddie McCann case, British nationals being arrested in Algarve for playing lotto with beans, being the "middle man" in the weapons smuggling operation to both contenders simultaneously in the Iran / Iraq war in the 80's, the list goes on.

But we know better and rise above all that.
Cheers.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Just because they havent gotten caught doesnt mean that they arent spying on us. Ill wager a hefty sum that all of our allies are spying on us in some form, and spying on each other. Granted its probably not that in-depth or extensive but i guarantee you its happening. The difference is that if the players were reversed and it was them spying on us that our discontent would be completely disregarded by the international community.

[Herr-Berbunch]

I just assumed it was a given that any nation would spy on another given the opportunity, and mobile phones are a very good opportunity. If you want a confidential conversation then a normal mobile is not the way to do it.

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

I just assumed it was a given that any nation would spy on another given the opportunity, and mobile phones are a very good opportunity. If you want a confidential conversation then a normal mobile is not the way to do it.

Considering that America pays its allies to spy on Americans in the US, how can any of them be complaining about spying?

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

An apology to our friends in Germany and other nations...

You should personally apologise. I accept your personal apology. Now don't do it again!

[Skybird]

States have no friends, it is naive to assume that. States have interests, and so at best are temporary partners regarding practical issues.

I expected nothing else than what is revealed in Germany these days. I am only surprised that so many people seriously claim to have been unknowing. As I said: naivety en masse over here.

The deep mistrust between Merkel and Obama was existent already before.

The French, British, Russians and Chinese spy on us, too.

All this spying is not so much about terrorism. It is about economic spionage, business spying, knowing in advance the negotiation tactic of the other when meeting him at the table next day. It is about how to penetrate best and anchor deepest own business lobbyists in the other's political every day politics. The British even were so kind to say that out clear and loud - cudos for their honesty!

The outlook on surveillance and sniffing out private people?

I am convinced that the pressure from collapsing currencies will mount until just two scenarios are left anymore that could materialise:

- either a return to a value-money (gold standard or else) with all the fall and breakdown that follows when the debt bubbles burst and people lose their pensions and saving during and already before that: this is the scenario of a major, slightly controlled breakdown. It has been done before in history. It'S the lesser evil, compared to sitting it out and then seeing uncontrolle collapse at the end: much worse.

- or the state's power-profiteers (officials, politicians) - trying to secure their power by establishing a dictatorship and according massive suppression, under whose umbrella an official debt-money that does not represent values, but uses debt bonds - the recognition of what we already have, de facto - gets introduced. For slightly varying motives, all seem to want this: socialists, Keynesians, EUcrats.

I see the first as the desirable and necessary, but I see the second as what actually is more likely. Both America and Europe have politicians that clearly prefer the second. Their craving to stay in power tramples all common sense.

Since this is so, you can safely assume that the spying on people, the penetration and deletion of their privacy, the control of their opinion forming, will increase and will be massively boosted. Also, since the crisis sharpens, economic spying will increase even more.

BTW, I assume that nothing of strategic importance has been communicated over Merkel's cellphone. There is a catalogue of different secrecy levels of what is allowed to communicate over private cellphones, encrypted cellphones, and what always is forbidden to communicate over cellphones.

This is not meant to appease over the NSA activities. But as I said in another thread, I find it pathetic if the weak is outraged over the stronger one acting strong, and seriously expecting him to act less strong and more weak. That expectation is a dud from beginning on. If these idiots over here would mean serious business, they would do their share to become stronger themselves to meet the other on same eye level. So, a lot of show there. Europe was stupid enough to comofrtably ignore when the US ov er decades formed the basis of its stratgeic, total superiority in the communication and electronic field. That all main servers of global internet traffic now reside inside the US, is the result. That all communication patterns, globally, depend on schemes that make them vulnerable to American surveillance and possible control/intervention, also is the logical consequences of Europes own failings.

We complain that the other is so strong. We should better ask why we allowed to stay so weak.

There is frequent complaining over here that the US sometimes implies that American laws must be followed by the rest of the world, are valid outside the US as well. But currently I hear a lot of talking that implies that America must follow German laws. Hypocrisy!

No need to apologize, Bubblehead. Or have you given the order to the NSA?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

I just assumed it was a given that any nation would spy on another given the opportunity, and mobile phones are a very good opportunity. If you want a confidential conversation then a normal mobile is not the way to do it.

Not just normal mobiles - a mobile NEVER is safe, no matter how encrypted: it is only a matter of time and resources the other side is mobilizing for the task. I even go further and say: no electronic means of communication is safe. If you want to be safe, then meet under four eyes, in a safe and unknown location.

Encryption better is understood as just delaying the other from learning about what you said. Whether the delay is sufficient for your intentions, or not, depends.

[Skybird]

Two German comments that illustrate what it is about. Adn what it is about, is this: Merkel understands private data to be trading goods and has just blocked the EU from greater pretection of privacy, and Germany is a weak country, unable to defend itself, its interests, even the rule of its laws inside its borders.

LINK: Deutschland ist eine hilflose Weicheirepublik geworden

LINK: Merkel bremst beim Datenschutz in Europe. Amerkanische IT Firmen können ihr Glück kaum fassen.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Armistead

We've always spied on our allies, cuz often they turn out to be our future enemies.

Turn or turnED?

Aha, so that's a good excuse to spy on present-day Germany.
Cool. Obama and the NSA will be happy to hear you say that. So will Prime Minister Cameron.
Another clown (Cameron) who justifies spying on everything and anyone, and shoots down quickly anyone that dares question spying methods and its blanket coverage (for want of a better word).

[Skybird]

Why that indignation, Feuer frei? Nobody in Germany is willing to pay for and to organize the investments needed to become able to stop them. We prefer to stay weak, and we dream of our talking and laments instead being taken as strong as others' deeds. But talking compared to doing, that is just some air flow.

You want them to stop spying on us? Then we need to learn how to make them stop - by driving them away. Not in wishful words. But in building up the needed power structures for that task. No tiny little mouse will ever talk big hungry cats into stopping to eat mice.

You even could sign new treaties and have international conferences and international "laws". Anmd the especially retarded amongst polticians maybe even really woauld take that for serious then. But spies will do their spying nevertheless. Except you learn how to stop them. In deeds.

To declare crime illegal is no way to fight crime. It does nothing.

[danasan]

Originally Posted by Skybird

States have no friends, it is naive to assume that. States have interests, and so at best are temporary partners regarding practical issues.

I expected nothing else than what is revealed in Germany these days. I am only surprised that so many people seriously claim to have been unknowing. As I said: naivety en masse over here.

The deep mistrust between Merkel and Obama was existent already before.

The French, British, Russians and Chinese spy on us, too.

All this spying is not so much about terrorism. It is about economic spionage, business spying, knowing in advance the negotiation tactic of the other when meeting him at the table next day. It is about how to penetrate best and anchor deepest own business lobbyists in the other's political every day politics. The British even were so kind to say that out clear and loud - cudos for their honesty!

SNIP

No need to apologize, Bubblehead. Or have you given the order to the NSA?

I totally agree on that.

Let me add, please, it is about resources as well: Oil, gas, water etc.

On another note, it seems to me as if the political part of the USA ( not the people ) is going to continue their politics of isolation from the rest of the world. And yes, resources again, seems to me the reason for that.

Look over there to China, they are growing - economically speaking - each and every year at a percentage which the rest of the world is loosing every year, generally speaking. And they are going to get all the resources like oil, gas they can get. Is that a situation the USA as a "superpower" can/will live with?

OK, we lost WWI and WWII. There is still no peace contract/declaration. We are still not a sovereign state and who knows if and when we will be. We are nothing better than a "suburb" of the USA today. But I really do wonder if it could be worse being a "suburb" of China or Russia? I'm fine with that.



"ah, the Sauerkraut recipe you emailed to your sister isn't that bad"

[Herr-Berbunch]

'I have that naked photo of you on the beach as my phone's wallpaper.'

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by danasan

I totally agree on that.

Let me add, please, it is about resources as well: Oil, gas, water etc.

On another note, it seems to me as if the political part of the USA ( not the people ) is going to continue their politics of isolation from the rest of the world.

I don 'T know if they isolate themselves from the rest of the world, but they certainly actively shift their focus from slowly dying Europe, which can mean only little to them these days, to the pacific - that is where the band now plays. The EU simply is not being taken serious by America, Russia, China, Brazil, India. It gets actively ignored, snubbed, bypassed.

Far more serious is that America alienates its biggest creditor. And that will backfire sooner or later. Even more since said creditor seems to probably prepare his return to a gold standard, and claiming the status of global reserve currency for itself in the forseeable future. Americans tend to appease themselves by thinking China has lots to lose when letting America fall. - And that is where they think wrong. Its not as if China has nothing to lose. It's just that it has less to lose if they let America fall. Sticking with it, just mounts the final bill. Its a bit like like with the Tiger chasing two men. You must not run faster than the Tiger. You only need to run faster than the guy beside you.

P.S. Bernie Ecclestone recently said something like this: Europe is done. It will make a nice tourism ressort, and that's it. - In a nutshell, he is right.