New changes in TMO 2.5?

Rockin Robbins · 08-27-13, 09:08 AM

Has anybody noticed that in TMO 2.5, where it was formerly safe to operate on the surface within 3000 yards of warships at night, now you can approach them flooded down to 30' at six knots and they open fire at further than 6000 yards? That is just impossible on a moonless night where I'm not making any wake at all. It's November 1942, so radar on capital ships (can't identify them) isn't present. This change makes engaging warships impossible, as they are already fast moving. If I can't approach within 6000 yards without being submerged I might as well not be here. It means that when you see warships on radar you just submerge and let 'em go by.

You know, this is no fun at all. I just got hit by the first shots from 8,000 yards on a subsequent test..... Decks awash, ahead 2/3, radar report of something at 9,000 yards. It heads directly to me, opens fire at 8000, "we have flooding sir!" with the first salvo. Not realistic. Not fun.

c13Garrison · 08-27-13, 09:22 AM

I've been noticing that since I first started playing the modded game. When you see warships on radar at night you flank your closing vector and at 6nm submerge and pray you were close enough to get to your firing point at your 8kt underwater speed. Most of my shots at night use the back half of the torpedoes full run, very rare to get a close shot, its all the luck of where they appear.

Bubblehead1980 · 08-27-13, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Has anybody noticed that in TMO 2.5, where it was formerly safe to operate on the surface within 3000 yards of warships at night, now you can approach them flooded down to 30' at six knots and they open fire at further than 6000 yards? That is just impossible on a moonless night where I'm not making any wake at all. It's November 1942, so radar on capital ships (can't identify them) isn't present. This change makes engaging warships impossible, as they are already fast moving. If I can't approach within 6000 yards without being submerged I might as well not be here. It means that when you see warships on radar you just submerge and let 'em go by.

You know, this is no fun at all. I just got hit by the first shots from 8,000 yards on a subsequent test..... Decks awash, ahead 2/3, radar report of something at 9,000 yards. It heads directly to me, opens fire at 8000, "we have flooding sir!" with the first salvo. Not realistic. Not fun.

Been so longer since I played TMO without RSRDI forget but I know with RSRD, RSRD's visuals and radar were way too good.I had escorts spotting me at 8 miles in daylight in fog etc. Tater released a patch that toned it down but kept it challenging.Ill send it, just PM me an email.

Armistead · 08-27-13, 10:40 AM

Yea, it's bothered me for a long time, radar, visuals, night surface attacks, etc.
I've worked on it somewhat, really difficult finding that perfect balance. I've modded a few things that Bubbles been playing with, but after further testing last night, it's about half way right from where I want it.

Not yet sure of the perfect answer for AI radar. I've adjusted it, but still hard to get passed it. I hate to raise the height so high it doesn't pick you up at all, but wonder how good jap radar really was with subs. I think the best bet is to further adjust cfg more to your subs benefit.

Rockin Robbins · 08-27-13, 11:04 AM

I agree. Japanese radar was nowhere near our capability and only existed on capital ships. They didn't have radar fire control or anything like it. So I agree that it should work not very well at all. Most of the time it was broken down in R/L anyway.

I would like to come up with some patches that reduce night visibility to about 3000 yards and incorporate your radar fixes. I think Lurker was tired of listening to people making suggestions and decided to just stick it to us in his last release. After all, the horizon is 5 miles at periscope height and those ships were firing from 4 miles on a moonless night. That's so unrealistic they'd have to have Superman aboard. They were good at night fighting. But they couldn't see when there was nothing to see.

Armistead · 08-27-13, 12:46 PM

I've pretty much come up with a night mod, basically did the following.

Reworked night env which in itself tweaks visuals down and gives a different look

Adjusted sim and sensors to further tweak visuals: Basically to reward you for doing right things, staying narrow, slower speeds.

Nulled the searchlights on capital and merchant ships so they don't light you up. Realistically, I don't think they would light you up. I may reduce the angle and range of searchlights.

The difficult balance is what should be a reasonable env. look with moon out regarding visual versus a no moon night. What's difficult is several of the sensors effect both day and night, so got to find that right balance.

I adjusted taters radar mod for RSRD, but I don't want to decrease range too much. I need to find that right height value that you can get under radar at decks awash, but may pick you up surfaced. I think the main thing is to make it so if you stay narrow to radar, it can't hit you.

I'm working on my env more now, further tweaking. You know how it is, change one value, it effects others and constant testing is time consuming. Time is an issue as my father is in bad shape and seems I spend more time out of town than in. I'll play with it more today, maybe I can get it close.

Simmy · 08-27-13, 04:11 PM

What I notice is that TMO 2.5 has a lot of planes and a lot of fishing boats.

Bubblehead1980 · 08-27-13, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I agree. Japanese radar was nowhere near our capability and only existed on capital ships. They didn't have radar fire control or anything like it. So I agree that it should work not very well at all. Most of the time it was broken down in R/L anyway.

I would like to come up with some patches that reduce night visibility to about 3000 yards and incorporate your radar fixes. I think Lurker was tired of listening to people making suggestions and decided to just stick it to us in his last release. After all, the horizon is 5 miles at periscope height and those ships were firing from 4 miles on a moonless night. That's so unrealistic they'd have to have Superman aboard. They were good at night fighting. But they couldn't see when there was nothing to see.

Escorts, well some, did have radar in later war and a few such as Matsu's had it from early 44 when they began to enter service.The big ships of course had it much earlier.

The problem with IJN radar in the game is either they see you or they dont, the fact they didnt have a ppi scope but used the a scope type display.This is why us subs could pull off night surface attacks on convoys with radar equipped escorts, they melded into the screen and they were just one of many lines popping up on the scope. Also, subs are tough to pick up.I think about the AI subs in TMo RSRD, US radar can not detect them, guessing the min height is not low enough. The scope shows fishing boats but your radar operator will not report them as contact.Subs just dont show up at all.I think of the Batfish in Feb 45, it found the three subs based on the the radar signals their APR was picking up and homed in on that, their Sj never picked up japanese sub until they were pretty close and the IJN subs never picked them up on radar.

Armistead got it down to where with right profile, they dont detect you on radar until 7,000 yards in most cases, maybe less still little too far but better than the 8800 yards before or the 14 miles RSRD had it set to.I agree, its about finding balance, you want to have to worry if an escort has radar and if possible dont want to set a range player knows to avoid. At least with the APR in TMO(I remember suggesting it and have always been graceful to ducimus for incorporating it) you can get an idea of where the radar singals are coming from and avoid that side of the convoy etc.Sometimes, it forces a long range shot, which is realistic. Take Ichi Convoy and USS Jack comes to mind, Jack could not get close because enemy escort had radar, kept picking them up and chasing them off.Ended up firing from 7,000 yards(I added Take Ichi to RSRD, its a challenge between the 12 escorts and zig zags.Need to get an escort with radar in April 44)

Mikemike47 · 08-27-13, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Been so longer since I played TMO without RSRD. I forget but I know with RSRD, RSRD's visuals and radar were way too good.I had escorts spotting me at 8 miles in daylight in fog etc. Tater released a patch that toned it down but kept it challenging.Ill send it, just PM me an email.

Is this what you are referring to?
Radar subsim download

I'll PM tater. I want to see if he doesn't mind adding the subsim download thread to the first post. I have seen, and heard from others, that gamefront or filefront does not have link or download files on their servers.

Anyone have the original thread links to these other SH4 mod downloads? I did a extensive search and came up with nothing in the past. Others have shown me the way and I corrected some issues in the past. I want to attach the original thread links to the bottom of the download link. Click on the downloads tab for information I am requesting in my user profile.
User profile with download link information needed.

Rockin Robbins · 08-27-13, 06:41 PM

I hope that's not what he's referring to. As you already noted it wasn't written for TMO 2.5, but for an earlier version. We'll keep looking and maybe a more recent variety will show up.

08-27-13, 09:08 AM	#1
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	New changes in TMO 2.5? Has anybody noticed that in TMO 2.5, where it was formerly safe to operate on the surface within 3000 yards of warships at night, now you can approach them flooded down to 30' at six knots and they open fire at further than 6000 yards? That is just impossible on a moonless night where I'm not making any wake at all. It's November 1942, so radar on capital ships (can't identify them) isn't present. This change makes engaging warships impossible, as they are already fast moving. If I can't approach within 6000 yards without being submerged I might as well not be here. It means that when you see warships on radar you just submerge and let 'em go by. You know, this is no fun at all. I just got hit by the first shots from 8,000 yards on a subsequent test..... Decks awash, ahead 2/3, radar report of something at 9,000 yards. It heads directly to me, opens fire at 8000, "we have flooding sir!" with the first salvo. Not realistic. Not fun. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS Last edited by Rockin Robbins; 08-27-13 at 09:47 AM.

08-27-13, 10:40 AM	#4
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Yea, it's bothered me for a long time, radar, visuals, night surface attacks, etc. I've worked on it somewhat, really difficult finding that perfect balance. I've modded a few things that Bubbles been playing with, but after further testing last night, it's about half way right from where I want it. Not yet sure of the perfect answer for AI radar. I've adjusted it, but still hard to get passed it. I hate to raise the height so high it doesn't pick you up at all, but wonder how good jap radar really was with subs. I think the best bet is to further adjust cfg more to your subs benefit. __________________ You see my dog don't like people laughing. He gets the crazy idea you're laughing at him. Now if you apologize like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

08-27-13, 11:04 AM	#5
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	I agree. Japanese radar was nowhere near our capability and only existed on capital ships. They didn't have radar fire control or anything like it. So I agree that it should work not very well at all. Most of the time it was broken down in R/L anyway. I would like to come up with some patches that reduce night visibility to about 3000 yards and incorporate your radar fixes. I think Lurker was tired of listening to people making suggestions and decided to just stick it to us in his last release. After all, the horizon is 5 miles at periscope height and those ships were firing from 4 miles on a moonless night. That's so unrealistic they'd have to have Superman aboard. They were good at night fighting. But they couldn't see when there was nothing to see. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

08-27-13, 12:46 PM	#6
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I've pretty much come up with a night mod, basically did the following. Reworked night env which in itself tweaks visuals down and gives a different look Adjusted sim and sensors to further tweak visuals: Basically to reward you for doing right things, staying narrow, slower speeds. Nulled the searchlights on capital and merchant ships so they don't light you up. Realistically, I don't think they would light you up. I may reduce the angle and range of searchlights. The difficult balance is what should be a reasonable env. look with moon out regarding visual versus a no moon night. What's difficult is several of the sensors effect both day and night, so got to find that right balance. I adjusted taters radar mod for RSRD, but I don't want to decrease range too much. I need to find that right height value that you can get under radar at decks awash, but may pick you up surfaced. I think the main thing is to make it so if you stay narrow to radar, it can't hit you. I'm working on my env more now, further tweaking. You know how it is, change one value, it effects others and constant testing is time consuming. Time is an issue as my father is in bad shape and seems I spend more time out of town than in. I'll play with it more today, maybe I can get it close. __________________ You see my dog don't like people laughing. He gets the crazy idea you're laughing at him. Now if you apologize like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

08-27-13, 06:41 PM	#10
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	I hope that's not what he's referring to. As you already noted it wasn't written for TMO 2.5, but for an earlier version. We'll keep looking and maybe a more recent variety will show up. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

08-27-13, 09:22 AM	#2
c13Garrison Ensign Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Chicago-ish, USA Posts: 223 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	I've been noticing that since I first started playing the modded game. When you see warships on radar at night you flank your closing vector and at 6nm submerge and pray you were close enough to get to your firing point at your 8kt underwater speed. Most of my shots at night use the back half of the torpedoes full run, very rare to get a close shot, its all the luck of where they appear.

08-27-13, 04:11 PM	#7
Simmy Planesman Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 180 Downloads: 187 Uploads: 0	What I notice is that TMO 2.5 has a lot of planes and a lot of fishing boats.