2 easy questions I cant seem to find the answer to

[jojotcb10]

First using the narrowband sonar I believe (the one used to classify a contact using the frequencies) how do I find out more of the frequencies? Usually when I pick up a contact that I know is a sub I only see the first 2 frequencies and a 3rd never seems to show up. I usually guess its an akula or victor and send off a torpedo and will still hit a decent amount of time but I would like to know for sure what I am shooting at. Also using that sonor there are obviously the wavey lines that you can scan thru looking for contacts but then there is that one section that dips down and is completely flat for like 30 or 40 degrees. Is that a blind spot or something? I can never pick up any contacts in that area? Sometimes a sub is cruising along that I am tracking and he seems to go into that flat area and I cant really track him anymore. I hope my explanation makes sense. I just cant figure out what that flat area is and what to do if a contact goes into that area.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by jojotcb10

First using the narrowband sonar I believe (the one used to classify a contact using the frequencies) how do I find out more of the frequencies? Usually when I pick up a contact that I know is a sub I only see the first 2 frequencies and a 3rd never seems to show up. I usually guess its an akula or victor and send off a torpedo and will still hit a decent amount of time but I would like to know for sure what I am shooting at. Also using that sonor there are obviously the wavey lines that you can scan thru looking for contacts but then there is that one section that dips down and is completely flat for like 30 or 40 degrees. Is that a blind spot or something? I can never pick up any contacts in that area? Sometimes a sub is cruising along that I am tracking and he seems to go into that flat area and I cant really track him anymore. I hope my explanation makes sense. I just cant figure out what that flat area is and what to do if a contact goes into that area.

First question: if you can't pick more lines in narrowband it means you have to improve your acoustical conditions... I mean, it could be because the target is slow & quiet and/or you are too far from it and/or you and your target are on opposite side of the thermal layer (if present) and/or you and your target are on opposite side of an underwater ridge and/or you are too fast and your own noise mask the target noise and/or the ambient noise is too much... and so on.
It is difficult to give a precise answer because the variables are many.
But in general, in narrowband you will pick up lower frequencies sooner than the higher ones.

Second question: the "blind spot" that you mentioned are the "baffles" of that sensor array... For example, let's say you are on a sub platform heading due North (000°) if you consider the cilindrical/sphere passive array mounted on the bow, that sensor can't pick up signals coming from the 180° zone... this area is called the "baffles".

This is basic knowledge you can get by reading the manual shipped with the game. You can also find useful this "let's play" tutorials on youtube made by one of the subsimmers here in the forum:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...-p2qHIpRNOvpGQ

I highly reccomend it

[Hinrich Schwab]

Assuming that you are in the American platforms, you have two separate towed arrays. They have differing capabilities. One works better at slower speeds and shallower depth while the other works better deeper and faster. Along with all of the other variables that Banryu mentioned, this can also be a factor. Likewise, the distance your towed array is away from the boat can make a bit of difference.

Another question that needs to be asked is if you have any mods installed as most of the mods alter the sound profiles of all of the platforms drastically.

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

Assuming that you are in the American platforms, you have two separate towed arrays. They have differing capabilities. One works better at slower speeds and shallower depth while the other works better deeper and faster. Along with all of the other variables that Banryu mentioned, this can also be a factor. Likewise, the distance your towed array is away from the boat can make a bit of difference.

Another question that needs to be asked is if you have any mods installed as most of the mods alter the sound profiles of all of the platforms drastically.

The towed array difference is only for the Seawolf, according to the manual.

Originally Posted by banryu79

This is basic knowledge you can get by reading the manual shipped with the game. You can also find useful this "let's play" tutorials on youtube made by one of the subsimmers here in the forum:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...-p2qHIpRNOvpGQ

I highly reccomend it

Thank you for the plug

[jojotcb10]

Ive gone over the game manual many times. I guess its because im so new to the sub sim games that reading the same sort of info multiple different ways helps me understand it better. I like to use the american subs as i read they are a lot easier. I have watched as many tutorial videos as i can but i guess i still had some questions. I sort of wish there was a step by step video out there of how to go one on one against a russian sub when you dont know what kind of russian sub it is and show exactly how to get in position to classify the contact. What ive encountered in some of the red storm missions was i was a sub and there would be no layer and sonor conditions are fine. I have everything on autocrew except sonar and the firing panel itself so i can adjust distance and depth of torpedo. I would pick up 2 lines of a contact somewhere to the north while i knew there were some russian subs up there. I would be going slow around 6 knots and head in the direction that it seemed the contact was heading to try and close on it. Lets say that contact was about 35000 yards away. Anyways i would close on that target and get shot at more often than not before i would get more than 2 lines. In fact i really never get more than 2 lines when it comes to a sub and i dont know if its a victor akula or what im going up against so i guess and typically fire blind. I cant quite figure out how to get another line. The few successes i have had i typically just guess victor or akula with high confidence and then watch until i have a firing solution with a small chance of error.
Thats another thing i have trouble with. I leave the whole firing solution part to autocrew because im trying to learn one step at a time and when i get a solution a lot of times it says theres a 20 percent chance of error or whatever it says. Then the contact kind of bounces around the map as that number will change. Its like the autocrew cant figure out exactly where the contact is. Sometimes i get lucky and it says zero for the error chance and i will usually hit but im not sure using autocrew the best way to lower that chance of error and get a good solution. Any tips on that? Ive read the manual, watched many vids, and they will tell me how far a weapon will go but what distance do people like to fire from? Ive just been trying to close to 30000 yards if its a real far contact, set the distance on torpedo right before that and hope to hit but the decoys will get my torpedo often. Id like to get closer but i always fear getting shot at. Is this long distance why i typically never see 3 lines? I just cant figure out how to get very close to a sub especially with no layer to pick up 3 lines.
I dont have any mods installed, i had recently bought the game off steam. Is there a mod that i should definitely add to the game? I read something about a mod that makes the contacts a bit more distinct so its easier to tell whats what. Does that mod work with the steam version of game?
I guess thats all my questions for now haha
In summary, how far do people like to shoot at subs from?
How do i get a better firing solution on autocrew?
Do i need a mod and does it work with the steam version?
Thank you for all the help so far. Your advice on here has helped a lot as have all the videos online. Im trying very hard to get an understanding of all this like you guys. Typically im a fast learner but i have been going through chemo therapy and countless other treatments for the last 5 years and im pretty sure they have rattled my brain as it definitely takes longer to pick up new concepts now. Thanks for being patient with me.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by jojotcb10

First using the narrowband sonar I believe (the one used to classify a contact using the frequencies) how do I find out more of the frequencies? Usually when I pick up a contact that I know is a sub I only see the first 2 frequencies and a 3rd never seems to show up. I usually guess its an akula or victor and send off a torpedo and will still hit a decent amount of time but I would like to know for sure what I am shooting at.

The towed array, hull array and bow array each have there frequency ranges that they are most sensitive too. Iirc, TA is for low frequencies upto 400 Hz, Hull array between 400 and 800 Hz, Bow between 800 and 1200 Hz. My memory is vague on the exact boundaries, but it is in the general ballpark. If you cannot find the higher frequencies on the TA then you need to try to detect the same contact (same bearing give or take a few degrees) with the Hull or Bow. But you may not be close enough to get a strong enough signal on them. Or you make to much noise yourself. If the first, then you'll have to make do with not knowing exactly what it is and develop a TMA solution none the less with what you got. In the mean time you can close the distance to get a better signal.

Also know that your monitor or graphicscard brightness and gamma settings may prevent you from actually seeing the line. In the dangerous.ini file should be a line with which you can alter the ingame gamma setting. It helps to make the very dark lines stand out, but it does make the whole screen look horrible.

... Also using that sonor there are obviously the wavey lines that you can scan thru looking for contacts but then there is that one section that dips down and is completely flat for like 30 or 40 degrees. Is that a blind spot or something? I can never pick up any contacts in that area? Sometimes a sub is cruising along that I am tracking and he seems to go into that flat area and I cant really track him anymore. I hope my explanation makes sense. I just cant figure out what that flat area is and what to do if a contact goes into that area.

Your chosen sensor is deaf as a doornail in that section. It's known as the 'baffles' as banryu79 explained. Either you turn to get the contact out of it (with TA it might take a long while since it is external and drags on a wire behind the sub), or you try to get the signal with a different sensor array that does not have a deafness area there. Bow sonar has baffles on your aft. Towed array has baffles on the bow. Hull array has baffles on both bow and aft.

[Pisces]

Adding onto the monitor and graphics card setting issue: The TimmyGoo's Tactical Manual zip file contains an example image (of I think Subcommand, but DW is similar) with how the faintest lines look in the narrowband waterfall display. Use that to correct the settings or know what you are looking for. In short, the background image of the waterfall display is not completely pitch-black, but the faintest lines are. So you should see the contrast.

http://subguru.com/missions/SCHQ_TACMAN_PDF.zip

[cemtufekci]

I have recently noticed that surface ships have two distinct sound spots. Their bearing is different. Like one of them is coming from bow wave and the other one is from propellers. This gets more obvious when the ship gets closer. The bearing difference gets larger. And they are close but not perfectly matched on narrowband display. Submarines doesnt have this characteristic. They have only one sound spot.
Can anyone confirm this? I didnt see this one mentioned anywhere before.

Edit: Ohh sorry it was my mistake. I was just practicing with mission editor. I put one ship at 0' bearing and other one at 180' bearing. So their true contacts overlapped with the other ones ambiguous contact. Also there was a sub on the 90' bearing. So i concluded with my fake scenario. How silly! Anyway the conversation i opened went on another direction which may become useful!

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by cemtufekci

I have recently noticed that surface ships have two distinct sound spots. Their bearing is different. Like one of them is coming from bow wave and the other one is from propellers. This gets more obvious when the ship gets closer. The bearing difference gets larger. And they are close but not perfectly matched on narrowband display. Submarines doesnt have this characteristic. They have only one sound spot.
Can anyone confirm this? I didnt see this one mentioned anywhere before.

Hey!
Never noticed before (but my total hours amount spent in DW is very low) nor heard/read about! If this is real (in the game) is a good catch you got, cemtufekci!

Btw, if a submarine is running on the surface she also should produce the "bow wave" sound spot too, right?

[Pisces]

You can detect this bearing difference with only one sensor? Or did you find a difference between the bearing of the same target on your own bow sensor and your towed array?

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Pisces

You can detect this bearing difference with only one sensor? Or did you find a difference between the bearing of the same target on your own bow sensor and your towed array?

I find that happening a lot (bearing difference between towed and bow), I wonder if one could use it to triangulate the range to target (provided that the point from where the bearing is calculated from for towed is the center of towed array and towed array is long enough).

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

I find that happening a lot (bearing difference between towed and bow), I wonder if one could use it to triangulate the range to target (provided that the point from where the bearing is calculated from for towed is the center of towed array and towed array is long enough).

Yes, you certainly can if the TA is streamed far enough. That is why I wanted to make the distinction between the two. At really close quarters even the bow and hull can be used to triangulate. But bow and TA is obviously better.

On the TMA plot the lines of the Bow, Hull and TA should intersect in the location of the contact (soundsource). But there may be some inaccuracy in the recording of the bearing, so the crossing point might be quite off in distance (as the intersection is so narrow).

Iirc FPSchalzy in his tutorial videos on youtube said it could be due to the timing of the tracker not being synchronised somehow between multiple sensors. Afaik, that only occurs with the first lines when you make a new tracker assignment. Most of the time I find the triangulation between multiple sensors to be spot on. But maybe I missed something he didn't.

[ikalugin]

Dear lord and I have thought that it was possible only with the UUV. That said, doesn't WAA work the same way?

p.s. I do wonder why there isn't some utility availiable that does that automatically (triangulating from towed and bow, or running possible TMA solutions for that matter).

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Dear lord and I have thought that it was possible only with the UUV. That said, doesn't WAA work the same way?

Launching a UUV gives out a "torpedo in the water" warning to the other units in the area. So not very usefull for stealth in some situations. But yeah, it works similarly in the TMA screen. The bearing lines are plotted from where the UUV is. So this works by lines depicting the direction from where sound comes from and how they intersect.

WAA in real life works I think by analyzing the signal delays between a lot of smaller sensors in the array. And by doing (long-term) signal processing on various frequencies it can figure out the phase (the position in the wave, think of it as the second hand on the clock going round each minute for each wave period) of particular frequencies. From these slight delays it can reconstruct the distance from where it must have originated. As it's exact workings are no doubt classified you might as well consider this magic.

WAA in the game simply gives the bearing and range of the contact with some random noise added to it. Or so it appears. Who knows how Sonalyst calculated this exactly.

[ikalugin]

I know how WAA works IRL (sort of), just was wondering about the game.

The method you have described sounds like generic mono impulse direction finding, ie same as in the modern phased array radars. With several bearings you go and triangulate.