Bring sub simulation and navel combat into this century!

speed150mph · 10-03-13, 07:23 PM

I'll be the first to say that I love the ww2 naval sims, especially ones that put you in the hot seat and give you a first person view of the battle, like enigma: rising tide and silent hunter. You get the feel of being in command, not watching from the inside. However these games are few and far between, and they are all set in the fierce battles of ww2. Well I say that we the people should make a point to be heard so someone might give us something new: a first person naval simulator of the modern ocean.

We've all seen videos of ship simulator extremes, or you can look it up on YouTube. You are the captain of a modern cruise liner Or supertanker, standing on the bridge as your vessel charges into the high seas, but with the ability to walk about your ship. The concept is there but I wanna someone to take it to the next level.

Now imagine you are standing on the bridge of a fully armed and combat ready missile cruiser, heading towards a patrol in the Persian gulf. You ordered her ahead two thirds and your helmsman is holding he steady on course 265, your radar and sonar are sweeping the area watching for a threat, your on board chopper is prepped in the hanger and ready to launch on 5 minute notice with Asw weapons, your rhib is hanging of the davits in case you need to board a suspitious vessel. Your main gun, vulcans, machine guns, cruise missiles and toperdos are ready, and your crew is standing by for your order to action. You have all the tools at your disposal, but how to use your assets is at your disposal. The ship and it's crew depends on the decisions you make.

Now take this, and expand it to a destroyer, an aircraft carrier, or a ballistic missile submarine. Imagine a dynamic campaign mode for say 4 classes of ship and 3 countries, aided by ai, starting with maybe a sea trial, to a patrol and then a hypothetical war breaks out, and your in the thick of it. And a multiplayer that pits captain against captain, and maybe even multi crew to test your ability to work together and function as a crew.

Now please find me a simmer who wouldn't go crazy over a game like this, even if you had to pay higher for it. I know I would. I know it would be a development nightmare, but the concepts are out there, it's just a matter of making them work together, and building off it.

So if you think that this is a great idea, repost this, send it to your fellow simmers, friends, anyone who might be interested. Because the only reason developers will undertake this is if there's a demand for it. We gotta prove that interest in simulations isn't dead, and that we are a thriving community who is sick and tired of being forgotten, and left I satisfied trying to make the most of our limited option. We can do it.

Red October1984 · 10-04-13, 12:16 AM

Ever played Dangerous Waters?

I think that's as good as we're going to get in the near-future...sadly...

desertstriker · 10-04-13, 12:26 AM

a couple problems with a modern subsim is who will you fight? 2nd the modern submarine is not the combat type of WW2. todays subs have specific roles 1 to end the world or 2 to track the ones designed to end the world or 3 keep an eye on enemy and insert spec ops. so a true subsim would be different from what some of us would recognize.

as stated by red october your best bet is dangerous waters.

Hans Witteman · 10-04-13, 12:56 AM

Hi Speed,

As far as i am concern and this is only my personal opinion, modern warfare doesn't appeal to many and there is many factors and many people with different taste.

For me ww2 was the man controlling the machine not the machine controlling the man!

The ww2 conflicts were also massive in scale and had an atmosphere that modern localized conflict simply don't have.

Anything with computers targeting system make me pass my way since for me nothing beat the ww2 era either if it is battleships, submarines or good ole warbirds.

My preference will always go toward ww2 scenarios and i will probably die with the same enthusiasm.

If we ever to have any other major global conflicts in the near future i am certain we wont be here on Subsim forum talking about it!

Regards Hans

Julhelm · 10-04-13, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desertstriker

a couple problems with a modern subsim is who will you fight? 2nd the modern submarine is not the combat type of WW2. todays subs have specific roles 1 to end the world or 2 to track the ones designed to end the world or 3 keep an eye on enemy and insert spec ops. so a true subsim would be different from what some of us would recognize.

That has never been a problem with flightsims or infantry/armor sims, all of which get away with hypothectical or what-if scenarios just fine. It is this recent obsession with 'historical accuracy' as some kind of dealbreaker that limits the scope of the sim genre.

desertstriker · 10-04-13, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julhelm

That has never been a problem with flightsims or infantry/armor sims, all of which get away with hypothectical or what-if scenarios just fine. It is this recent obsession with 'historical accuracy' as some kind of dealbreaker that limits the scope of the sim genre.

I think you missed my combat point. The flight sims ile ace combat, all of the planes are very combat oriented. Todays submarines on the other hand are not designed around the combat that was done in WW2. main example look at the Nuclear reactor imagine hunting a battlegroup then you get an incoming torpedo boom you die but because of the explosion it causes a nuclear explosion. I just don't see how a true naval sim is possible in a modern setting..

speed150mph · 10-04-13, 06:08 AM

I have to disagree with a number of things, one is who will you fight? Russia would be number one, and china And Iran all have increasing numbers of submarines, plus surface vessels. If you played a russian sub there's the us, Great Britain, and France.

Another thing is that submarines arnt either a underwater icbm base or a fighter jet of the sea. Most classes of us sub carries a cruise missile launcher, and hold the capability to insert seal teams. Besides they all carry torpedo tubes and are as vulnerable to surface or submarine attack as the next.

Thirdly, while today's subs aren't nearly as hands on as the old gato and uboats, they aren't a press a button and kill machine either. If you've played a combat flight sim that has any amount of realism, you'd see the complicated process you have to go through to detect, track, lock and fire on an enemy jet. In a modern nuclear submarine, you have to use your assets, like sonar bouys, passive and active sonar arrays, towed sonar arrays, to find an enemy sub, while trying to stay hidden yourself. Depth, underwater terrain, weather and marine life can all affect the ability for your submarine to see, or be seen. Once you've found him, you still have to establish a firing solution in the targeting computer, choose your weapon, flood your tube and fire. And if you've read and watched hunt for red October, you can see that just because you fire a torpedo doesn't mean that it can't fail, or that a skilled captain cannot evade it. And if your fired upon, then your abilities are tested to use your terrain, your weapons, and your ship to save your crew. Sure, firing a torpedo at a target was more hands on and took that mix of skill, luck, and intuition, but the process was alot simpler. You rarely had a sub on sub battle. A modern simulation provides as much challenge to the modern submarine captain as a world war 2 sim.

And fourth, dw is the best we have, but to be honest it's not much. You have an outside view with the pull ups for simplified systems. It's like playing fsx from an exterior view with the windows pulled up. And even then, look at the interest in it. It has enough of a fan base that it was given its own section in this forum. That's why I posted this poll, we need to show developers that we want more. We want a silent hunter 3 version of the modern submarine, and surface vessels. We need to show that the interest in simulations hasn't died away, but is thriving in the Internet underground. That is the only way we are going to get what we want. When a game developer is researching possible new game ideas and trying to see what people want, we want this post to be the one that catches his eye, and to do that, we need alot of hits, alot of votes, and alot of people spreading the word.

desertstriker · 10-04-13, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speed150mph

Another thing is that submarines arnt either a underwater icbm base or a fighter jet of the sea. Most classes of us sub carries a cruise missile launcher, and hold the capability to insert seal teams. Besides they all carry torpedo tubes and are as vulnerable to surface or submarine attack as the next.

The USA has moved away from the submarine launched cruise missile actually part of it is because of cost and second because of failure rates. and i already pointed out the seal teams but as in SH4 and 5 i hated the insertion missions when i play a subsim I want to be hunting not inserting someone.

Quote:

That's why I posted this poll, we need to show developers that we want more. We want a silent hunter 3 version of the modern submarine, and surface vessels.

I am jus going to direct you to an artical posted by neal http://www.subsim.com/2013_08/preview_near_impact.php

Julhelm · 10-04-13, 07:09 AM

Why does it need to be combat like in WW2? Take modern combat and make it fun instead. The only reason it would be boring would be if the focus was solely on technical accuracy and systems procedures.

Herr-Berbunch · 10-04-13, 08:00 AM

I think it might be fun to chase an AGI and try and nick its towed array without being caught, and the general cat and mouse game from the Barents and through the gaps to the Atlantic.

TorpX · 10-15-13, 12:17 AM

What's goin' on with the poll?

50% yea and 70% nay!? That's 120%.

Arclight · 10-15-13, 02:48 AM

It seems some conniving individuals picked both options. How devious.

View Poll Results: Do you support this idea
Yay	8	61.54%
Nay	7	53.85%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

10-03-13, 07:23 PM	#1
speed150mph Electrician's Mate Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 132 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	Bring sub simulation and navel combat into this century! I'll be the first to say that I love the ww2 naval sims, especially ones that put you in the hot seat and give you a first person view of the battle, like enigma: rising tide and silent hunter. You get the feel of being in command, not watching from the inside. However these games are few and far between, and they are all set in the fierce battles of ww2. Well I say that we the people should make a point to be heard so someone might give us something new: a first person naval simulator of the modern ocean. We've all seen videos of ship simulator extremes, or you can look it up on YouTube. You are the captain of a modern cruise liner Or supertanker, standing on the bridge as your vessel charges into the high seas, but with the ability to walk about your ship. The concept is there but I wanna someone to take it to the next level. Now imagine you are standing on the bridge of a fully armed and combat ready missile cruiser, heading towards a patrol in the Persian gulf. You ordered her ahead two thirds and your helmsman is holding he steady on course 265, your radar and sonar are sweeping the area watching for a threat, your on board chopper is prepped in the hanger and ready to launch on 5 minute notice with Asw weapons, your rhib is hanging of the davits in case you need to board a suspitious vessel. Your main gun, vulcans, machine guns, cruise missiles and toperdos are ready, and your crew is standing by for your order to action. You have all the tools at your disposal, but how to use your assets is at your disposal. The ship and it's crew depends on the decisions you make. Now take this, and expand it to a destroyer, an aircraft carrier, or a ballistic missile submarine. Imagine a dynamic campaign mode for say 4 classes of ship and 3 countries, aided by ai, starting with maybe a sea trial, to a patrol and then a hypothetical war breaks out, and your in the thick of it. And a multiplayer that pits captain against captain, and maybe even multi crew to test your ability to work together and function as a crew. Now please find me a simmer who wouldn't go crazy over a game like this, even if you had to pay higher for it. I know I would. I know it would be a development nightmare, but the concepts are out there, it's just a matter of making them work together, and building off it. So if you think that this is a great idea, repost this, send it to your fellow simmers, friends, anyone who might be interested. Because the only reason developers will undertake this is if there's a demand for it. We gotta prove that interest in simulations isn't dead, and that we are a thriving community who is sick and tired of being forgotten, and left I satisfied trying to make the most of our limited option. We can do it.

10-04-13, 12:16 AM	#2
Red October1984 Airplane Nerd Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 6,243 Downloads: 115 Uploads: 0	Ever played Dangerous Waters? I think that's as good as we're going to get in the near-future...sadly... __________________

10-04-13, 12:56 AM	#4
Hans Witteman Kaleun of U-3 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: somewhere in 1939 Posts: 1,816 Downloads: 123 Uploads: 0	Hi Speed, As far as i am concern and this is only my personal opinion, modern warfare doesn't appeal to many and there is many factors and many people with different taste. For me ww2 was the man controlling the machine not the machine controlling the man! The ww2 conflicts were also massive in scale and had an atmosphere that modern localized conflict simply don't have. Anything with computers targeting system make me pass my way since for me nothing beat the ww2 era either if it is battleships, submarines or good ole warbirds. My preference will always go toward ww2 scenarios and i will probably die with the same enthusiasm. If we ever to have any other major global conflicts in the near future i am certain we wont be here on Subsim forum talking about it! Regards Hans __________________

10-04-13, 08:00 AM	#10
Herr-Berbunch Kaiser Bill's batman Join Date: May 2010 Location: AN72 Posts: 13,203 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	I think it might be fun to chase an AGI and try and nick its towed array without being caught, and the general cat and mouse game from the Barents and through the gaps to the Atlantic. __________________

10-04-13, 12:26 AM	#3
desertstriker Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2012 Location: mod soup bar and grill Posts: 1,756 Downloads: 998 Uploads: 0	a couple problems with a modern subsim is who will you fight? 2nd the modern submarine is not the combat type of WW2. todays subs have specific roles 1 to end the world or 2 to track the ones designed to end the world or 3 keep an eye on enemy and insert spec ops. so a true subsim would be different from what some of us would recognize. as stated by red october your best bet is dangerous waters.

10-04-13, 06:08 AM	#7
speed150mph Electrician's Mate Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 132 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	I have to disagree with a number of things, one is who will you fight? Russia would be number one, and china And Iran all have increasing numbers of submarines, plus surface vessels. If you played a russian sub there's the us, Great Britain, and France. Another thing is that submarines arnt either a underwater icbm base or a fighter jet of the sea. Most classes of us sub carries a cruise missile launcher, and hold the capability to insert seal teams. Besides they all carry torpedo tubes and are as vulnerable to surface or submarine attack as the next. Thirdly, while today's subs aren't nearly as hands on as the old gato and uboats, they aren't a press a button and kill machine either. If you've played a combat flight sim that has any amount of realism, you'd see the complicated process you have to go through to detect, track, lock and fire on an enemy jet. In a modern nuclear submarine, you have to use your assets, like sonar bouys, passive and active sonar arrays, towed sonar arrays, to find an enemy sub, while trying to stay hidden yourself. Depth, underwater terrain, weather and marine life can all affect the ability for your submarine to see, or be seen. Once you've found him, you still have to establish a firing solution in the targeting computer, choose your weapon, flood your tube and fire. And if you've read and watched hunt for red October, you can see that just because you fire a torpedo doesn't mean that it can't fail, or that a skilled captain cannot evade it. And if your fired upon, then your abilities are tested to use your terrain, your weapons, and your ship to save your crew. Sure, firing a torpedo at a target was more hands on and took that mix of skill, luck, and intuition, but the process was alot simpler. You rarely had a sub on sub battle. A modern simulation provides as much challenge to the modern submarine captain as a world war 2 sim. And fourth, dw is the best we have, but to be honest it's not much. You have an outside view with the pull ups for simplified systems. It's like playing fsx from an exterior view with the windows pulled up. And even then, look at the interest in it. It has enough of a fan base that it was given its own section in this forum. That's why I posted this poll, we need to show developers that we want more. We want a silent hunter 3 version of the modern submarine, and surface vessels. We need to show that the interest in simulations hasn't died away, but is thriving in the Internet underground. That is the only way we are going to get what we want. When a game developer is researching possible new game ideas and trying to see what people want, we want this post to be the one that catches his eye, and to do that, we need alot of hits, alot of votes, and alot of people spreading the word.

10-04-13, 07:09 AM	#9
Julhelm Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Icy North Posts: 693 Downloads: 189 Uploads: 0	Why does it need to be combat like in WW2? Take modern combat and make it fun instead. The only reason it would be boring would be if the focus was solely on technical accuracy and systems procedures.

10-15-13, 12:17 AM	#11
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	What's goin' on with the poll? 50% yea and 70% nay!? That's 120%.

10-15-13, 02:48 AM	#12
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	It seems some conniving individuals picked both options. How devious. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.