For all your intrusive surveillance needs: FinFinisher

Catfish · 03-14-12, 07:14 AM

Evidence had been found when egyptians stormed the embassies, in Cairo. Some companies, especially named was the UK-based "Gamma", had been asked by Mubarak to find solutions for supervising hotmail, surveying remote computers, listen to twitter and eMails as well as complete traffic records (the US CIPAV used by the FBI has been asked for by german colleagues http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/th...IPAV-08-p9.pdf ), and it is most likely that this kind of software is in use in all western nations since several years. So what about this "democracy", this is nothing but governmental abuse - if at all officially governmental:

Online surveillance is a growing market, and all democratic governments buy it:
Not necessarily the elected governments though, but the secret services, often without their "superiors" even knowing what's going on in their own country, thus violating all kinds of laws and commandments theoretically guaranteeing the freedom and privacy of their citizens :

http://owni.eu/2011/12/15/finfisher-...illance-needs/

A state in a state .. or better a circle of power, in a helpless facade. As one german politician said, "I am no expert [sic!], but then i do not really want to know about that." Nice. Can dumbness be an excuse ?

Skybird · 03-14-12, 08:33 AM

It usually makes me burst with laughter today when I hear somebody refering to laws, treaties and rules when wanting to make an argument in favour of any treaty, or trying to defend any regulation or status quo. "It is written in the law", "Our country is based on this principle written in the constitution", "The xth amendement says", "That court has ruled", "This attorney said", "That high ranking party-politician said" - it is naive beyond any reasonability to trust in this kind of authority-believing thinking anymore.

I claim that political business today is more busy with bypassing rules, than with making sure to follow them. And that is true for Europe AND the United States for sure.

And the intel community? Plays its own games anyway, like always.

03-14-12, 09:19 AM

Quote:

It usually makes me burst with laughter today when I hear somebody refering to laws, treaties and rules when wanting to make an argument in favour of any treaty

So that means sky can no longer argue against any treaty...or invent parts of a treaty he thinks exists in invisible ink so he can argue against it.
After all if it is naive to argue for what is written as it is meaningless then it is also naive to argue against the same thing as it is meaningless....and downright crazy to invent some writing when the writing even if somehow made real would be meaningless.

Is Mr self contradiction telling himself his arguements are laughable?

Catfish · 03-14-12, 11:42 AM

When it e.g. comes to war crimes, there are often international signed treaties "quoted", e.g. how soldiers may not shoot at parachutists and the like, but the sad fact is that most is not forbidden - it just appears "inhuman", so it must be forbidden, right ? It just isn't.

So treaties may be signed or not, when it comes to teeth and claws good will and treaties are soon being sorted out. The only problem is to sell one's actions to the "public", to upkeep the facade; but usually a good propaganda department antagonizing the enemy as the beast helps to justify all kinds of own atrocities. It was necessary for protecting you .. blah ..

But this is not what the articles are about - here the underlaying structures enforce their political will, without asking the - in the minds of this self-declared "elite" - elected puppets changing every 4 or so years due to elections. Following a swaying dumb public and elections, no lasting strategy can be achieved, so they act without official rubber-stamp. If no one knows about it, there will be no prosecutor.
The question is whether this still would be a democracy ? I doubt it.

From secret killer commandoes to drones, to medical tests on prisoners to absolute surveillance this is neither freedom for anyone, nor democracy.

Platapus · 03-14-12, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Some companies, especially named was the UK-based "Gamma",

I thought that was a big turtle and from Japan?

Platapus · 03-14-12, 06:00 PM

One of my favourite quotes

Quote:

Almost all nations observe almost all principles of international law and almost all of their obligations almost all the time

The Late Louis Henkin

It is one of the most true statements about international relations.

Catfish · 03-15-12, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

I thought that was a big turtle and from Japan?

Yep.

And don't ever click on that link, you might get a virus, a trojan or worse:
https://www.gammagroup.com/

03-14-12, 07:14 AM	#1
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,765 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	For all your intrusive surveillance needs: FinFinisher Evidence had been found when egyptians stormed the embassies, in Cairo. Some companies, especially named was the UK-based "Gamma", had been asked by Mubarak to find solutions for supervising hotmail, surveying remote computers, listen to twitter and eMails as well as complete traffic records (the US CIPAV used by the FBI has been asked for by german colleagues http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/th...IPAV-08-p9.pdf ), and it is most likely that this kind of software is in use in all western nations since several years. So what about this "democracy", this is nothing but governmental abuse - if at all officially governmental: Online surveillance is a growing market, and all democratic governments buy it: Not necessarily the elected governments though, but the secret services, often without their "superiors" even knowing what's going on in their own country, thus violating all kinds of laws and commandments theoretically guaranteeing the freedom and privacy of their citizens : http://owni.eu/2011/12/15/finfisher-...illance-needs/ A state in a state .. or better a circle of power, in a helpless facade. As one german politician said, "I am no expert [sic!], but then i do not really want to know about that." Nice. Can dumbness be an excuse ? Last edited by Catfish; 03-14-12 at 08:00 AM.

03-14-12, 08:33 AM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,604 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	It usually makes me burst with laughter today when I hear somebody refering to laws, treaties and rules when wanting to make an argument in favour of any treaty, or trying to defend any regulation or status quo. "It is written in the law", "Our country is based on this principle written in the constitution", "The xth amendement says", "That court has ruled", "This attorney said", "That high ranking party-politician said" - it is naive beyond any reasonability to trust in this kind of authority-believing thinking anymore. I claim that political business today is more busy with bypassing rules, than with making sure to follow them. And that is true for Europe AND the United States for sure. And the intel community? Plays its own games anyway, like always. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-14-12, 11:42 AM	#4
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,765 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	When it e.g. comes to war crimes, there are often international signed treaties "quoted", e.g. how soldiers may not shoot at parachutists and the like, but the sad fact is that most is not forbidden - it just appears "inhuman", so it must be forbidden, right ? It just isn't. So treaties may be signed or not, when it comes to teeth and claws good will and treaties are soon being sorted out. The only problem is to sell one's actions to the "public", to upkeep the facade; but usually a good propaganda department antagonizing the enemy as the beast helps to justify all kinds of own atrocities. It was necessary for protecting you .. blah .. But this is not what the articles are about - here the underlaying structures enforce their political will, without asking the - in the minds of this self-declared "elite" - elected puppets changing every 4 or so years due to elections. Following a swaying dumb public and elections, no lasting strategy can be achieved, so they act without official rubber-stamp. If no one knows about it, there will be no prosecutor. The question is whether this still would be a democracy ? I doubt it. From secret killer commandoes to drones, to medical tests on prisoners to absolute surveillance this is neither freedom for anyone, nor democracy.