what were The Old Men thinking?

[flag4]

i was watching Das Boot - again!
i am also on patrol north of ireland in my own world.
i have 12.000 tons under the ocean.
i have a good and seasoned crew in mid 1940. there have been no tranfers, but i have lost one man to and aeroplane attack.
i got to the point in Das Boot were the old man - full of deadly frustration - tries it on with the destroyer and nearly gets in the neck.
for some reason it has only dawned on me now what a foolish move this was by him - he could have sacrifised his crew for a lousy destroyer.
i would never do that. but because i saw him do this in the film (and maybe this was done for dramatic purpose in the film) i went to my patrol after watching and went about my duties as a Kaleun.
i had recently sunk a local merchant for not very much and then proceeded for the Task Force i had been signalled about. then, out of nowhere came 'ship spotted.'
i came upstairs to take a look and sure enough it was a ship. clear blue sky flat calm what could be better. sneak in submerged and finish it off.
then i realised it was a destroyer that had not seen us, so i did the sensible thing a proceeded to attack with the deck gun ( ?????????WTH?????).
yes, the deck gun - just what you need on a flat calm day 7000 meters from potnetial death.
so, he saw me in the end - i made sure of that. shells dropping around him like children jumping in off a bridge.
then he came for me - and it was then at that moment i realised i was a knob.
i dived. ( oh, great, a sign of proffesionalism!)
he was on me in ten minutes. cans exploding all round. i had only 30 meters below me. i was sure i would die, having sacrifised my well seasoned crew for a paultry destroyer, several thousand tons.
i took damage. it was shallow. i was going to die. and there was no where to run. so i took another chance. i waited till he was over me and heading away. i climbed through the exploding cans to periscope depth always turning
towards him - hard to Port.
whe i saw him in my scope he was about 900meters away and closing, turning for a run in.
this time luck was with me.
as he came on to me straight i came on to him staight. i waited - tube loaded caps open.
then as he came to just under 500 meters, i let him have it with 23 seconds. he was turning in from his zig. and lucky for me on this occasion he got it
right under the bow. i dived to twenty pulling hard to starboard, checking him all the time untill my scope was under.
he had stoped quiet soon. i heard two sharp explosions. surface to periscope depth and he was sinking.
i let out a cheer, sat here. and then watched him go under..
all this time i couldnt help think, what was the Old Man thinking as he went for that destroyer. he must have known it was potentially useless - at worst fatal.
maybe it was done for dramatic effect or boredom or at worst frustration - but still.
look after the crew.

[frau kaleun]

I always wonder about the choice to attack the destroyer as well. IIRC the 2WO says something to Werner about the Old Man being crazy to try it.

OTOH - it's not like he starts lobbing shells at it with the deck gun, lol. He goes to periscope depth and tries to set up a torpedo attack. My assumption has always been that *he* believes from the destroyer's behavior up to that point that the u-boat has not been detected on the surface, and that it's unlikely the periscope will be sighted in those heavy seas (afterward he expresses amazement and consternation that this is apparently exactly what happened).

There's also the fact that, IIRC, they and a bunch of other boats are in the process of trying to intercept a convoy reported by another u-boat in the area. I think there is some dialogue before that scene, when the weather is getting really bad, indicating that according to the info they were given, they should have found the convoy already - which they haven't. The visibility is so bad that they might well sail right past it and never see it. They submerge for a hydrophone check, hear a surface ship, and resurface. Then they spot the destroyer. So my assumption there is that he believes he has come across one of the escorts that is sweeping the area at some distance ahead of or around the convoy that the proposed wolfpack is supposed to be finding and attacking. Since that's the only enemy ship sighted so far, and it seems not to have noticed them, and a stealthy hit and run from periscope depth is not totally unthinkable, I suppose the reasoning might be: why not take out this guy, and make one less escort that we all have to deal with if and when we actually locate this convoy we're chasing?

Altho I will grant you, I think general frustration with their situation at that point did play some part in the decision to attack.

[Herr-Berbunch]

I'll risk a shot at a DD early years, if I'm unseen/unheard, my thinking is that it's one less to come after me. Problem is they're rarely on their own.

You were lucky. I don't know if L-GB on a real patrol was involved in an attack like this or it's just playing to the audience.

In the Director's Cut of the Director's Cut they put back in scenes showing the rivalry that Henrich Lehmann-Willenbrock had with a former friend in Britain. The captain of the destroyer stole his woman from him in 1936, and has since married her. From that day on, Henrich swore bloody vengeance against him... Ooooh, melodramatic subplot! Okay, maybe not. :P

I forget the year, but doesn't one of the GWX radio messages eventually tell you to go after destroyers?

[Luno]

It shouldn't be that foolish to go after a DD if you haven't been detected. Considering that the captain and crew in the movie were bored to death, it really wasn't surprising at all that they took that chance (on one mission, I was so bored that I took my 20mm flak gun against a tugboat. I eventually sank it, but I doubt I had any impact on shipping).

However, I have sunk destroyers with the deck gun before without getting so much as a scratch. I don't know if there are different skill levels to the AI because they seem to not know how to react at first when you start shooting.

If you do wish to be so bold, be sure to get a range estimation first through the scope or UZO. Then fire away, and follow the tracers Getting the first hits is critical. If you can destroy the bridge, it will be very easy after that.

This is something I wouldn't attempt during a campaign though. I've "invested" too much time to let myself die and start over from doing something too risky.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Hans Uberman

In the Director's Cut of the Director's Cut they put back in scenes showing the rivalry that Henrich Lehmann-Willenbrock had with a former friend in Britain. The captain of the destroyer stole his woman from him in 1936, and has since married her. From that day on, Henrich swore bloody vengeance against him... Ooooh, melodramatic subplot! Okay, maybe not. :P

1) Where does that story come from? I've never heard it.

2) I've seen the Director's Cut and the longer 'Uncut' version, and I don't recall any scenes like that.

I forget the year, but doesn't one of the GWX radio messages eventually tell you to go after destroyers?

I'm pretty sure there is, as well as a later message telling you not to.

While in SH3 I try to avoid destroyers like the plague there are a couple of ways of looking at the problem. If you can ambush a lone destroyer at minimal risk to your boat it can make some sense to try. Of course, like hitting a wasp nest with a stick, things can go dramatically wrong in a hurry.

In the U-Boot Waffe, being awarded the Knight's Cross brought honour to the crew as well as the Captain and early in the war it required some 100,000 GRT to qualify. However, successful attacks on warships, inherently far more risky, could facilitate nomination for the award much sooner, particularly since the KM tracked warship kills separately from merchants. An extreme example was KL Albrecht Brandi who shared the second highest level Ritterkruze (Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds) with Wolfgang Luth, who sank over 200k GRT. Brandi claimed a number of warships and actually sank a couple and these carried more weight than his otherwise meager merchant score. Of course he was a shameless self-promoter and his awards are controversial but they would have been common knowledge throughout the Fleet and it would have been miraculous if no other captains thought they couldn't emulate him.

http://www.uboat.net/men/brandi.htm

http://www.uboat.net/men/luth.htm

Another way of looking at it might be "The Destroyer you sink today cannot attack you tomorrow". This kind of strategic thinking has little scope in the game as it freely re-spawns sunken warships.

As for deliberately targeting escorts, deploying acoustic torpedoes seemed to indicate this might be a good tactic but the torpedoes failed to live up to their billing and ultimately, submarines attacking escorts would prove to be a zero-sum game. Overall adaption of this desperate measure was a good indicator that the U-Boats were beaten.

In late war SH3 even armed with homing torpedoes, very bad things can happen if you start hunting destroyers.

[JazzJR]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

*snip*

I think this Scene with the Destroyer was that, where one of the Watch crew said "Freighter sighted!" and then the Kaleun went up and said "Thats no Freighter....thats a Destroyer" And since he though the Destroyer is around 6000meters away he tried to attack it. The 2WO said "He want to attack the Destroyer. Crazy at this sea (because of the high waves)" Then a wave is infront of the Periscope and the Destroyer is almost ramming the Boat. So i think he just tried to attack it because he though it was far away and didn't have him spotted, so it would be a good hit. But i think the british ships had already radar in that year. The Kaleun said "They really have spotted out Periscope"

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by JazzJR

I think this Scene with the Destroyer was that, where one of the Watch crew said "Freighter sighted!" and then the Kaleun went up and said "Thats no Freighter....thats a Destroyer" And since he though the Destroyer is around 6000meters away he tried to attack it. The 2WO said "He want to attack the Destroyer. Crazy at this sea (because of the high waves)" Then a wave is infront of the Periscope and the Destroyer is almost ramming the Boat. So i think he just tried to attack it because he though it was far away and didn't have him spotted, so it would be a good hit. But i think the british ships had already radar in that year. The Kaleun said "They really have spotted out Periscope"

And then he says something about this being hard to believe, given the weather or sea state or whatever. At least according to the English subtitles altho my German dictionary would have me believe that the "hard to believe" part is pretty spot on. And there's a bit later on in the uncut version, when they are trying to make repairs after the Gibraltar disaster, where he remarks on the fact that the plane seemed to come right at them in the dark, the implication being that it already knew where they were. The 1WO says he's heard talk about the British having new and improved radar and der Alte says (again, according to the subtitles) that if the Tommies can find them in the dark there's not much left they can do except pray.

I think all of that stuff is a reflection of the already stated fact that the Happy Times are over, the Allied offense and defense in the war at sea are improving in ways the Germans never anticipated and for which they have no ready answer, and the men out there trying to deal with them are getting the first inklings of that unpleasant fact.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

1) Where does that story come from? I've never heard it.

2) I've seen the Director's Cut and the longer 'Uncut' version, and I don't recall any scenes like that.

Sorry, to disappoint but the story was just a joke I made up. Sounds like something they'd do in a film though.

[WWII44]

I always go for destroyers, one less bastard to worry about. and when I attack a convoy I try and eliminate the destroyers first so I can attack the relatively defenceless merchants with impunity.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Hans Uberman

Sorry, to disappoint but the story was just a joke I made up. Sounds like something they'd do in a film though.

Oh. Don't I feel silly.

[flag4]

Originally Posted by Hans Uberman

In the Director's Cut of the Director's Cut they put back in scenes showing the rivalry that Henrich Lehmann-Willenbrock had with a former friend in Britain. The captain of the destroyer stole his woman from him in 1936, and has since married her. From that day on, Henrich swore bloody vengeance against him... Ooooh, melodramatic subplot! Okay, maybe not. :P

I forget the year, but doesn't one of the GWX radio messages eventually tell you to go after destroyers?

where do i get 'In the Director's Cut of the Director's Cut' from it sounds very interesting. i have never heard of this before?


EDIT: i ve just realised i have been conned - you have dashed my hopes of a longer than longer than version !

[flag4]

Originally Posted by WWII44

I always go for destroyers, one less bastard to worry about. and when I attack a convoy I try and eliminate the destroyers first so I can attack the relatively defenceless merchants with impunity.

i think this is a waste of resourses. as soon as you start attacking destroyers, surely the convoy breaks up and starts to zig-zag.

go in. find the biggest juicy ones. sink them and leave sharpish...no?

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

At least according to the English subtitles altho my German dictionary would have me believe that the "hard to believe" part is pretty spot on...

...(again, according to the subtitles)...

If only some kind German subsimmer would promise to make you a literal translation of the original language!



But not in .docx format!