Type 054A frigate PLAN (Video)

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I found video clip from Youtube.

What you guys (and ladies) think about this ship?

Type 054A frigate pictured below.

[magicstix]

I think it looks nice and juicy to an ADCAP. :>

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Not bad but with a "self-defense" (i.e. weak) sonar.

[magicstix]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Not bad but with a "self-defense" (i.e. weak) sonar.

"Self defense" is Chinese code for "nothing to see here, move along," while they pretend their military buildup is no reason for concern.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by magicstix

"Self defense" is Chinese code for "nothing to see here, move along," while they pretend their military buildup is no reason for concern.

In the sonar area, China's self-defense is still a self-defense sonar. I understand it is the MGK-335.

[magicstix]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

In the sonar area, China's self-defense is still a self-defense sonar. I understand it is the MGK-335.

The only difference between a "self-defense" sonar and an "attack sonar" is whether or not it can send a track to fire control. :>

[magicstix]

Yeah the sonar on this thing is pretty awful...

http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/navy/navy_100-104.pdf

I wonder if it has a tail.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by magicstix

Yeah the sonar on this thing is pretty awful...

http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/navy/navy_100-104.pdf

I wonder if it has a tail.

No, no tail. China got about two ships with VDS, none with towed arrays though they have tested them. I suppose that this represents not only a technological limitation, but also a recognition that their oceanographical knowledge, necessary to make the most of long range sonars, is still incomplete. Having said that, their antiair ability is broadly comparable to a JSMDF Murasame / Takanami class after they have re-equipped with ESSM, and that is going slowly. Pre-ESSM they actually have a superiority in that area with their HQ-16s. Their C-803 missiles have inferior explosive power, but a small advantage in range, a substantial penetrative advantage (Mach 1.3-2 endphase) and also ECCM (b/c it has both radar and TI seeker) vs SSM-1B, so in a limited conflict if used well they can gain a certain escalation dominance vs JSMDF, to say nothing of the other puny navies.

[magicstix]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

No, no tail. China got about two ships with VDS, none with towed arrays though they have tested them. I suppose that this represents not only a technological limitation, but also a recognition that their oceanographical knowledge, necessary to make the most of long range sonars, is still incomplete. Having said that, their antiair ability is broadly comparable to a JSMDF Murasame / Takanami class after they have re-equipped with ESSM, and that is going slowly. Pre-ESSM they actually have a superiority in that area with their HQ-16s. Their C-803 missiles have inferior explosive power, but a small advantage in range, a substantial penetrative advantage (Mach 1.3-2 endphase) and also ECCM (b/c it has both radar and TI seeker) vs SSM-1B, so in a limited conflict if used well they can gain a certain escalation dominance vs JSMDF, to say nothing of the other puny navies.

I would hope the JMSDF would be smart enough to not get into a surface vs surface entanglement with PLAN, and would instead use their diesel subs. In any case, China's building its navy to counter the USN, not JMSDF.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

No, no tail. China got about two ships with VDS, none with towed arrays though they have tested them. I suppose that this represents not only a technological limitation, but also a recognition that their oceanographical knowledge, necessary to make the most of long range sonars, is still incomplete. Having said that, their antiair ability is broadly comparable to a JSMDF Murasame / Takanami class after they have re-equipped with ESSM, and that is going slowly. Pre-ESSM they actually have a superiority in that area with their HQ-16s. Their C-803 missiles have inferior explosive power, but a small advantage in range, a substantial penetrative advantage (Mach 1.3-2 endphase) and also ECCM (b/c it has both radar and TI seeker) vs SSM-1B, so in a limited conflict if used well they can gain a certain escalation dominance vs JSMDF, to say nothing of the other puny navies.

What's your source for the tail?

Last I heard we didn't know one way or the other, so I just went with "yes" for the lwami mod. If it turns out the answer is "no," then an update will be needed...


As for the original question, it's not a gold-plated ship by any means, but it is potent in ASUW and can defend itself from air attack fairly well. So they're powerful enough to make an impact on the battlespace, but not so costly that they can't afford to lose one. Considering the number that China plans to build, these will probably prove to be highly effective workhorses.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by People's Liberation Army Navy, Combat Systems Technology, 1949-2010 by James C. Bussert and Bruce A. Elleman

Surprisingly, only four PLAN warships have variable-depth sonar (VDS) installed, and no surface ships have towed arrays, which are two of the best surface sensors. Not even any Chinese oceanographic research vessels to date have been observed with experimental towed arrays. There is a lack of evidence that the PLAN has bottom passive arrays utilizing sound channels, which could indicate that long-range ASW cueing has a serious shortcoming. The PLAN concept of ASW is limited to tactical ship defense rather than strategic distant-warning sensor systems.

and the VDS are identified to be on Luda III and Luhu class destroyers.

The Wikipedia article on their top-of-the-line "Chinese Aegis" Type 52C destroyer claims slightly different:

Although both variable-depth sonar such as ESS-1 medium-frequency VDS (the Chinese development of French DUBV-43 VDS) and towed-array sonar were successfully tested on board, these were abandoned because incorporating these extra sonars would lead to significant redesign of the hull and increased cost. Despite the fact that the extra processing capability reserved in the combat data system for the towed sonar and VDS when needed, it is highly unlikely that the towed sonar and VDS would ever be incorporated in the near future.

but nevertheless agrees in the end no towed sonar or VDS was fitted.

When you add that as far as I know, no source, even those from China or Taiwan, claim for an operational towed array, the most probable conclusion at this stage seems clear.

[Molon Labe]

Thanks.

Feng at Information Dissemination thought they had them, but I don't remember how much (if any) evidence he had of that. So I've been on the lookout for better info.