Hello, thanks and a sub vid

[0rpheus]

Hi there chaps.

I've been a lurker here for a few months, playing SH4 brought me here and since discovering TMO I've not looked back. Figured I should say hello and thanks to Ducimus and all the captains who've collected information here - I've had a whale of a time reading up on all the fleet boat history and playing the amazing mods for SH4. Sink Em All was a good read, had me coming back for patrol after patrol.

Went sort of full realism early on - just left the cameras and the tdc on auto.. I like my eye candy and I knew it'd take a while to get the hang of things before learning the tdc. I was surprised to learn that the battery, more often than then available air, was the main limiting factor in submergence. I've suffered the woes of the Mk 14's in good humour after reading about the real skippers, and cursed my duds and clangers just like Morton and the others did. Now I'm trying out the tdc (terrible at the AoB, end up doing it by eye at the moment as i'm not too hot with angles) and can usually hit japs at 1500 yds.. warships I just hide from.

Came cross this on another site the other day and remember thinking 'the subsim chaps would like this, I really should register..' so here it is. Crappy 'reality tv' angle but it's new captains being put through their paces on a modern nuclear sub... not exactly on topic, but it's nice to see them evade and attack just like the fleet boats did:

http://www.channel5.com/shows/submarine-school/episodes

Salut, thanks for all the collected wisdom and amazing mods, and many more years safe sailing to you all.

[TorpX]

Welcome aboard!

Stop in whenever you're in port.

[max-peck]

Hey there 0rpheus

Welcome aboard

[0rpheus]

Thanks fellas

[Gerald]

[Daniel Prates]

Those ARE interesting videos, someone posted them recently here (or somwhere else in SUBSIM).

Welcome aboard.

[0rpheus]

Originally Posted by Daniel Prates

Those ARE interesting videos, someone posted them recently here (or somwhere else in SUBSIM).

Welcome aboard.

I had a feeling someone might have done, oh well.

Rather than start another thread, I have a few questions I'm hoping my fellow captains can answer - hope this is ok! Some of these may seem terribly obvious... but I want to get the best out of this sim and am willing to look a little silly to achieve that

1. Approaching convoys. As I'm unsure as to what IJN vessels have radar, and at what stage of the war (my campaign at the moment is late '42 iirc), I usually get plenty far in front of the convoy, then go as deep as I dare and attempt to pop up (blow ballast, then periscope depth at about 100 feet) in the middle/side of them, hit them then get out. What I'm finding however is that as soon as I broach the thermal layer, I'm often spotted even with engines at all stop... which ties in to my second question.

2. Surface attacks. Back to the radar issue again - even at night, surface attacks seem very difficult to pull off, with my boat often being spotted well beyond torpedo range. I've not even dared to try a surface attack with DD's around, even at night - as I assume like the merchants, they'll spot me a mile away!

So these questions become one related mishmash: How do you more experienced captains achieve convoy attacks? Do you go deep, then pop up or attack from the surface after dark? And how do you achieve successful surface attacks, even at night? Do you keep the boat low in the water and sacrifice speed? Go full pelt in and slow down on close approach? What about 'depth under keel' - does that make you visible either under/over water? From reading sub books, night surface attacks were a common thing - is it just the SH4 AI that makes this unrealistically difficult, or am I screwing it up?

No doubt the latter, which leads on to my final question.

3. AoB. I've read/watched the tutorials, but still don't really get it. I use map contacts so I have no trouble plotting the target's course, and when he crosses me at 90 degrees I can sometimes get a hit (depending on the stadimeter, which I also have trouble with).

What I can't do is get a manual solution into the position keeper before the target crosses me at 90 degrees. I don't understand how to translate the target's heading into AoB relative to my position and the target's course. There are a couple of reasons for this (beyond my own ineptitude!), the first being that the AoB dial on the right, and the target AoB on the left don't seem to correspond to the info in the tutorials. I'm using TMO 2.2 and only have one mouse-over readout on the left-hand AoB - that of the torpedo track angle, and most of the tutorials reference a second mouse-over angle on the 'inner circle' of the left hand AoB dial.

Secondly, the data-range on both AoB dials doesn't seem to correlate to actual heading data in degrees. For example, in the sub-school mission where you attack the single cruiser, I plot the target's course and get a rough heading of 280 degrees. But, because the right hand AoB dial shows increments of 0-18 on both port/starboard sides I don't know how I input the target's heading accurately. Currently I have to estimate manually with the scope up, redoing it until the AoB matches the ship's map bearing, which takes a while and leaves me open to being spotted - so I'm sure this isn't the best way to do it - and even once I've done that, the AoB still changes once the position keeper is activated and my torps go miles in front/behind the target. The tutorials have not helped, they move too quickly and reference calculations and all sorts of other stuff I don't understand. Even the 'estimate speed' doesn't seem terribly accurate, and the stadimeter ranging nearly always leaves my shot short of the target, or too far behind it no matter where I point the periscope. I think I need someone to walk me through manual targeting from start to finish, because it's just getting frustrating and putting me right off doing it the 'real' way.

I'm not a maths person and so that's probably a large part of my problem. God knows how you chaps calculate speed and AoB so easily! Any advice on successful surface attacks, convoy approaches and how to understand AoB properly would be really appreciated! I know I've asked about AoB etc in another thread, but the conversation got derailed a little and I'm still none the wiser!

Thanks chaps

[EricW]

Hi Orpheus
Last night I played (TMO 2.2) an hour or so and had a approach that normally works, but for some reason didn't....
2am VERY dark overcast, windspeed 6 m/s. so its not real rough, not flat calm either, perfect attack situation IMO. I tracked a 5 ship convoy with 4 escorts and got up around to their bows at about 6000 yds distance all the way past them at 15 kts speed. They didn't have a clue I was there. I couldn't see them either, but I kept the PPI radar on them the whole time watching to see if they zigged or if an escort peeled off towards me. Neither happened and I ended up ahead just inside the flank escorts track dead ahead of the convoy (well almost). I expected that the flank escort on my side would detect me for sure if I stayed on the surface so I went to radar depth and watched them come in on radar and kept trying to see them on my periscope. Finally, when the lead escort was about 3000 yds out, I could see his bow wake. I swiveled the scope and I could see the flank escort's bow wake too. What I couldn't see was any of the convoy ships at all. On radar all the ships were in perfect formation so I just let 'em come on. I was at 42ft, dead stop, rigged for silent running, with my bow pointed in between the main body and the flank escort when the lead escort opened up on me from about 2500 yds. shooting at my shears. All of a sudden there were star-shells everywhere and I got rushed by 3 escorts, pinging like mad. What did I do wrong? I dunno.....I've got the APR-1 and it didn't warn me of radar.....they didn't show any signs of detecting me until I was under fire. I went deep and they rocked my boat around pretty good for about 10 minutes as the convoy scattered. I was able to get something out of it after a bit, as they lost contact and I was able to get back up to periscope depth and catch a small freighter crossing my bow. After I pounded him with 2 mk14's, the escorts really got on me and kept me down for a half hour before I lost them.

I guess I really expected to be detected, but only right around the time I was attacking the convoy....and definitely NOT by the lead escort. I figured the flank one would start pinging me as I set up for the convoy shots. I've used lots of surface attacks too in similar situations with success. I've had escorts go by me at under 2000 yds and not pick me up on the surface...who knows, sometimes they just see ya (?)

edit- as for the AOB probs......I just kept missing until I figured it out (REALLY). Then I found this place and read that I was mostly using the O' Kane method described in the tutorials. Hell, I've read "Clear the Bridge" several times (like 25) so I guess it influenced me a bit, lol.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by 0rpheus

1. Approaching convoys. As I'm unsure as to what IJN vessels have radar, and at what stage of the war (my campaign at the moment is late '42 iirc), I usually get plenty far in front of the convoy, then go as deep as I dare and attempt to pop up (blow ballast, then periscope depth at about 100 feet) in the middle/side of them, hit them then get out. What I'm finding however is that as soon as I broach the thermal layer, I'm often spotted even with engines at all stop... which ties in to my second question.

2. Surface attacks. Back to the radar issue again - even at night, surface attacks seem very difficult to pull off, with my boat often being spotted well beyond torpedo range. I've not even dared to try a surface attack with DD's around, even at night - as I assume like the merchants, they'll spot me a mile away!


3. AoB. I've read/watched the tutorials, but still don't really get it. I use map contacts so I have no trouble plotting the target's course, and when he crosses me at 90 degrees I can sometimes get a hit (depending on the stadimeter, which I also have trouble with).

Thanks chaps

1. I can't really give you an answer here. There are too many variables. Not the least of which version you are playing. I make most of my attacks against single ships/ small convoys and this is different than large convoys or task forces.


2. This is tricky. I have had mixed results with night attacks. Usually, I have paralleled the targets, while carefully plotting. Then, cut in quick and fire torps and turn away before they spot me. It depends on how dark it is. Moonlight makes a big difference. So does the amount of surface you present to the enemy ships. I would not try to get too close. In most cases stay beyond 2,000 yd. Maybe others can give better advice here.

3. AOB is the bearing of your sub as seen from the target ship. From reading your post I can't tell how you are doing this. The stock game school missions are worthless for learning this kind of thing. The input dial is marked 0-18, which is 0 to 180 degrees, port and starboard. You should estimate the AOB visually as best you can, OR measure it from your plot, by using the in-game protractor, measuring from the target's course ahead to the line of sight to your sub. If you are using map contacts, this should be very accurate.

Determining target speed is just a matter of measuring the distance between two plotted points and dividing by the time. If the target ship moved 900 yds. in 3 min., it is moving at 9 knots. This is the "3 minute rule": Take the distance moved in 3 min. and divide by 100, to get the speed in knots.

Make sure the position keeper is on. It updates the firing solution in the TDC. I hope this helps.

[0rpheus]

Thanks Eric & Torpx - you've both been a great help! Running 1.5 & TMO 2.2, for future reference.

I wasn't getting that AoB was the angle of my boat, using the protractor I can get it now. Same with the speed (that 3 minute rule is very handy!), I've just run a couple of test patrols and managed to calculate 3 targets (very sparse hunting, typical!) successfully. It seems to have clicked

Re convoy approaches and night attacks, the way you both describe it there are a huge amount of variables to take into account. I rarely go for larger convoys, preferring single merchants where possible, but occasionally I take on a smaller convoy with 2-3 escorts and that's where I run into trouble. Just trial and error I guess, will have to look up when the IJN get radar on warships and merchantmen and compare it to my experiences of the game timeline.

Thanks again, especially Torpx for your clear explanations. Now I just have to stop swearing under my breath trying to get a range in high seas!

[Vaso Yer]

Welcome aboard

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by 0rpheus

Thanks Eric & Torpx - you've both been a great help! Running 1.5 & TMO 2.2, for future reference.


Thanks again, especially Torpx for your clear explanations. Now I just have to stop swearing under my breath trying to get a range in high seas!

Your most welcome.

Plotting, manual targeting, and tactics are part art and part science. They take some time to understand and develop.

[0rpheus]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Your most welcome.

Plotting, manual targeting, and tactics are part art and part science. They take some time to understand and develop.

You're right, I was surprised at how intricate the process was. In fact I've been surprised every time I've played SH4 ever since picking it up.. I read about 5 when it was released and remember thinking 'that doesn't sound like a lot of fun'. Fast forward 2 years and I pick up SH4 on a whim after seeing 3 advertised with the new IL2 Cliffs of Dover on Steam and I'm hooked!

Now I'm reading some of the books, learning about the history and the captains and the boats and really enjoying it. I started out with easy targeting and have now progressed to manual thanks to you & the chaps here at subsim. Hence the initial post - this site and the community are an amazing resource that really brings the game to life, and I think that should be appreciated.

Even picked up SH5 cheap (almost wish I hadn't, what a nightmare lol) to see the boats on the 'other side' of the war in a bit more detail than the Uboat missions. TMO 2.2 is damn near perfect (how I wish Ducimus would mod for SH5) and the immersion and atmosphere is unlike anything I've played. I keep coming back to 4 for patrol after patrol, quite tempted to write some up as stories one day.

Sub simmer for life thanks to you chaps. Nice one!

Ooh, a question: are there any good 'living ocean' mods for SH4 that would work with TMO? I quite like the idea of dolphins and fish and things, a more living ocean to sail in. Any ideas?